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Shredder 2006-07-14 15:11

Tsundere
 
I just found what tsundere is and realized I love it. All of my fav chars and series have it. Anyone else? I'll list some:

Naru (Love Hina)
Kirie (Girls Bravo)
Shana (Shakugan no Shana)
Satsuki (Ichigo 100%)
Eri (SR)
Suzuka kinda.. (Suzuka)

I even wanna find real chicks who are tsundere, it's so appealing! Hard to get is so much better than the doting girls like Aoi (AYA).

Deathkillz 2006-07-14 15:17

:O how can you miss out an obvious one...
Tohsaka Rin ~ Fate/Stay Night :D

xris 2006-07-14 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredder
I just found what tsundere is

Could you give a bit more explanation as to the point of the thread. At the moment it just seems to invite others to list their favourite Tsundere character and as such makes the thread rather meaningless (if all it's going to do is generate lists and no discussion).

And while you may have discovered what "Tsundere" means, I'm sure many others are still unclear, so how about telling people what it means to you (and maybe link some of the posts kj1980 has made on the topic).

MrProphet 2006-07-14 18:59

Tsundere is basically a reinvention of the most cliched one-dimensional anime characters.

Anime-watchers are used to basically differentiating the characters in anime based on their hair color, bust size, or a prevailing personality trait. Many of the characters, a lot of the borne out the fire and brimstone of date-sim bishoujo games, are so far lacking in real character and real personality, that the only way to tell apart one girl from another is that one is petite and has pink hair and the other is tall and has blue hair (yes, Kimi ga..., I am bashing YOU!).

These characters usually have a single character trait that makes them what they are. Date-sims convertions are a very good indicator. Take Love Hina. You can tell Mitsune apart because she is a drunk and flirty. Madoka is a pseudo-miko-cum-samurai. Shinobu is a timid loli.

They are so one-dimentional because it makes them easier to understand. The audience these shows are aimed at is too young to be able to grasp the nuances of complex character relationships found in seinen or josei, thus the need for highly simplyfied, one-dimensional characters who exist to fulfill a single role.

But, over the years, even this simplicity gets a bit tiring, thus the totally bogus invention of the 'tsundere' character.

A Tsundere is a one-dimensional character multiplied by 2. She is one type of character half of the time, and another type of character the other half, which offers some novelty, but does not solve the fundamental problem that these kind of date-sim-spawned characters are absolutely devoid of life.

Since the tsun-tsun and dere-dere personalities are the most prevalent and simplistic among the cliches that pester date-sim convesions, combining them into one has been a no-brainer.

I know that 'tsundere' is now considered 'moe' among some fans, but don't let that simple attraction to bitchy-turned-sweet characters fool you into thinking that they in fact have multi-faceted personalities. The don't. They exhibit two personalities not because they are complex, but because that creates an illusion of complexity.

Shiroth 2006-07-14 19:02

Tsundere well only be the new moe for a few more months.. then we'll have a new type of moe, then another.. and another~

Shredder 2006-07-15 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by xris
Could you give a bit more explanation as to the point of the thread. At the moment it just seems to invite others to list their favourite Tsundere character and as such makes the thread rather meaningless (if all it's going to do is generate lists and no discussion).

And while you may have discovered what "Tsundere" means, I'm sure many others are still unclear, so how about telling people what it means to you (and maybe link some of the posts kj1980 has made on the topic).

Hmm you guys are strict about thread creation around here, well that's good so as to prevent clutter. As for pure listing, true that's quite useless and can be found elsewhere prolly. I guess what is it about tsundere that is likeable? I looked up the word itself on wikipedia, and the article was relatively brief but I understood the concept right away. It's just nice to finally be able to put a word to it, as I had noticed the trait in many characters before but didn't know how to describe it really.

Prophet, interesting analysis--tsundere works for me though, since I prefer what appears to be a more multifaceted character compared to one who is blatantly 1-D (Aoi). I've found that the tsundere chars always seem to have more personality and mystique surrounding them. You have to wonder--why do they have two sides like that? What are the keys to softening them up? Almost like finding bad guys' weak points in vid games to break through their defenses. And the turning points when the defenses falter are golden, the best moments in series for me. Still waiting on Eri...

So is tsundere just a passing fad? I wasn't aware of that nor any previous fads. What were some? Serious anime analysis time!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki
Tsundere (ツンデレ, Tsundere?) is a Japanese term for a personality that is initially combative, and then loving. Tsundere is a combination of the two words tsuntsun (ツンツン, tsuntsun?), and deredere (デレデレ, deredere?). Tsuntsun is defined as "aloof, morose, pointed"[1], and deredere is defined as "exhausted, lovestruck, logy"[1]. Tsunderekko is a related noun, referring to a youthful person with a tsundere personality.

The term tsundere was originally inspired by characters from renai video games[2]. The archetypical tsundere character starts in the tsuntsun phase as an unpleasant or violent acquaintance. As the story progresses, the character, often suddenly, enters the deredere phase, becoming more meek and loving. While tsunderekko are not exclusive to Japanese entertainment[3], the term tsundere came about as a result of the need to describe the many tsunderekko found in games and harem anime. Like nekomimi, tsundere is considered a moe-inspiring character trait[3][4].

Can someone clarify that bold? I've seen moe mentioned before and in this thread, not sure what it's all about

Shiroth 2006-07-15 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredder
Can someone clarify that bold? I've seen moe mentioned before and in this thread, not sure what it's all about

If you looked up Tsundere on Wiki'.. i'm sure you can do the same for Moe. ^^;

Shredder 2006-07-15 12:17

I checked but it was rather wordy and I couldn't make as much sense of it as tsundere, which I understood immediately. In short it seemed to be some sort of fetish or obsession with a certain type of character. This def from Ken Akamatsu is better
Quote:

"Moe" is word which indicates a budding feeling of love, as well as a fetishistic taste, generally towards fictional characters from anime, manga, and games, especially an attachment or obsession with those who have certain special characteristics (nekomimi, tsundere attitude [a character type in which the character, generally female, is alternatingly tsun-tsun, "pointed; mean", and dere-dere, "lovey dovey", hence tsundere.
Of course I had the sense to check Wiki for moe as well, but I felt compelled to ask about it in someone's own words. If every question were referred away to other sites then 90% of the forums/posts wouldn't exist around here

gknight 2006-07-15 12:20

MrProphet it's not the first time i think your posts are interesting. ^^
(though btw most of the dating sim i happen to understand are seinen, and i know lots of shoujo with complex characters. :] (because you said "seinen and josei". ^^))

that's it.

MrProphet 2006-07-15 21:25

The games themselves might be implicitly seinen due to their 18+ age restrictions, but most of the game-to-anime conversions are positively shounen.

BTW, I also argee that a lot of shoujo is a lot more intelligent that shounen. Not all of it (after all, a lot of anime caters to the OMGTEHHOT-fangirls), but a lot. This can be easily explained by the fact that phisiologically and mentally girls mature faster than boys, thus they can digest more complex stuff at that age.

NoSanninWa 2006-07-17 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredder
Of course I had the sense to check Wiki for moe as well, but I felt compelled to ask about it in someone's own words. If every question were referred away to other sites then 90% of the forums/posts wouldn't exist around here

Well, it is generally accepted that it is impossible to explain the meaning of moe in English words, but perhaps you might get it if you read the five posts starting here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...337#post381337

According to kj1980 those posts make a great description of moe (as well as a really good 4-koma manga).

Aoie_Emesai 2006-07-17 09:33

A pretty bad tsundere is from Zero no Tsukaima. Louise is as bad as they get: abusive, loud mouth, agressive (verbally too), typical tsundere behavior. Just because the main character is pratically a slave to her command.

Welll.... enjoy now.

DaFool 2006-07-17 09:51

Mr Prophet has nice analysis, but gives too little credit to the term. Just like a car is more than a sum of its parts, and a relationship is more than the sum of the people involved, tsuntsun + deredere !== tsundere, but rather tsundere >= tsuntsun + deredere.

I have the ideal candidate for tsundere personality: Viscount Abriel Nei Dorusk Paryunu Lafiel

Mentar 2006-07-17 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet
I know that 'tsundere' is now considered 'moe' among some fans, but don't let that simple attraction to bitchy-turned-sweet characters fool you into thinking that they in fact have multi-faceted personalities. The don't. They exhibit two personalities not because they are complex, but because that creates an illusion of complexity.

Alot of nonsense in this strangely combative "analysis", which can more or less be reduced to the undifferentiated claim that most anime characters are one-dimensional by default, backed by the theory that anime consumers prefer something "easy to understand".

To begin, the example MrProphet gave was Love Hina, which is NOT a dating game. While he has a point that the need to visually differentiate between characters leads to certain property-style settings, this has nothing to do with the complexity of the depicted personalities. Take KimiNozo, which he mentioned, a REAL dating game which contains several of the most complex characters I've come across. If you're seriously unable to distinguish the guilt-ridden personality of Mitsuki from the naive-gentle personality of Haruka or the aggressive-genki Akane (the only Tsundere in this game, by the way) without the help of their hair colors, please avoid talking about anime before you hurt yourself :)

No, the complexity of characters entirely depends on the script and the quality of the anime direction. Therefore, Tsunderes aren't by definition "complex" or not. The only thing we know is that they're changing attitudes from mean-negative to sweet-positive. That alone doesn't guarantee or prevent "complexity".

One of the reason why I still tend to like the tsundere template is that developments like these are usually attributed to strong-willed characters with personality. Those also tend to be the most interesting ones. Also, assuming that the change in attitude is properly developed, it requires the _ability_ to change, which doesn't sit well with one-dimensionality.

Today, "tsundere" is an attribute which is terribly abused IMHO. Nearly every character which occasionally alternates between nasty-mean and sweet-endearing is slapped with it - incorrectly, in my opinion. Therefore, I'd restrict it to the _extreme_ cases, only occasional lapses in judgment and behavior shouldn't count. The development should be gradual, believable and SUSTAINED.

MrProphet 2006-07-17 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar
Alot of nonsense in this strangely combative "analysis", which can more or less be reduced to the undifferentiated claim that most anime characters are one-dimensional by default, backed by the theory that anime consumers prefer something "easy to understand".

So the majority of anime is not simple-minded trash aimed at little kids? That's news to me.

Quote:

To begin, the example MrProphet gave was Love Hina, which is NOT a dating game.
I argee that it was a mistake. My mind got ahead of me (although there is a Love Hina game, it's not based on one). Yet the fact remains and I will gladly provide another bishoujo-game example that would fit the same profile. Ai Yori Aoshi, anyone?

Quote:

While he has a point that the need to visually differentiate between characters leads to certain property-style settings, this has nothing to do with the complexity of the depicted personalities. Take KimiNozo, which he mentioned, a REAL dating game which contains several of the most complex characters I've come across. If you're seriously unable to distinguish the guilt-ridden personality of Mitsuki from the naive-gentle personality of Haruka or the aggressive-genki Akane (the only Tsundere in this game, by the way) without the help of their hair colors, please avoid talking about anime before you hurt yourself :)
3 words.... DAIKUJI AYU MOE. :heh: :heh: :heh:

In any case, I have no problem here. I understand that every hardcore fan needs a validation of his/her undying love. It's not enough to like something as a "guilty pleasure", instead one needs to confirm that one's admiration stems from the show's high artistic qualities. In other words, you can convince yourself about the "complex characters" all you want, but spare me such grief.

Kimi ga... is a fairly good, enjoyable show that somewhat rises above the general fold with an unexpected plot-twist in the beginning, yet to claim that the distinct look of characters does not stem from the generalizing tradition of most date-sims and that it is not used to underscore character profiles is either a lie or ignorance. Oh, and for the record, I can distinguish between characters based on something other than their look. Yet I am somewhat older that the target audience of such shows and I don't need visual cues like A-cup, B-cup or C-cup. But to claim that the creators do not use such visual cues is nonsense.

Quote:

No, the complexity of characters entirely depends on the script and the quality of the anime direction. Therefore, Tsunderes aren't by definition "complex" or not. The only thing we know is that they're changing attitudes from mean-negative to sweet-positive. That alone doesn't guarantee or prevent "complexity".
Of course! But the very fact that these kind of characters are scripted to have ONLY TWO precise layers of personality without any shades of gray or warping is already a testament to the flatness of ANY such a character.

The only thing that the creators can differentiate is the means by which those two layers are presented, i.e. "she is mean because..." and "she is sweet because..."

And frankly, the overwhelming evidence only points to mediocricity of presentation. Aside from a few stars, most such 'tsundere' characters don't have an interesting story behind their idiosyncratic behaviour.

Quote:

One of the reason why I still tend to like the tsundere template is that developments like these are usually attributed to strong-willed characters with personality. Those also tend to be the most interesting ones. Also, assuming that the change in attitude is properly developed, it requires the _ability_ to change, which doesn't sit well with one-dimensionality.
I can present you a multitude of female characters that are strong without being tsundere or one-dimensional. Nausicaa, Motoko Kusanagi, Yoko Nakajima, Priss Asagiri, etc.

Also, for the most part the basis for the "change in attitude" is arbitrary and involved having the hots for some guy. Which is to be expected from a date-sim, but does not point to a really innovative character development.

MrProphet 2006-07-17 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFool
I have the ideal candidate for tsundere personality: Viscount Abriel Nei Dorusk Paryunu Lafiel

As far as characters like Lamhirh, or Asuka Langley-Soryuu or the current favourite Haruhi Suzumiya is concerned, I prefer to label them more 'ambivalent' that 'tsundere'.

You are correct to point out that in such cases, the tsundere personality is more than a sum of lovey-dovey and ice-queen, but then why use a term that specifically lists only two possible modes of operation?

Why invent the bicycle yet again, when the human temperaments were already roughly classified since time immemorial as: 1) sanguine, 2) choleric, 3) phlegmatic, 4) melancholy.

What we call a 'tsundere' is simply a mixture of a choleric and melancholy temperaments, a charismatic active character with short temper that sometimes becomes thoughful and introverted. Since most people don't fit a single temperament profile all their life and usually have a mixture of this and that, I just don't see what's so special about 'tsundere' unless we use it specifically to denote these 2-dimensional characters I've talked about previously, but never for real life phychological analysis.

arias 2006-07-17 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet
What we call a 'tsundere' is simply a mixture of a choleric and melancholy temperaments, a charismatic active character with short temper that sometimes becomes thoughful and introverted.

I think that's wrong.

You're using an extroverted/introverted criteria to judge Tsundere-ness, which I believe is surely wrong. I'm also pretty sure that someone like kj1980 will not agree to that definition.

Instead, what "tsundere" seems to be associated with is rather harsh/cold --> gentle/warm.. and also the idea of exclusion and inclusion. Those who are excluded get the tsun treatment, while those who are included (selectively by the tsundere) get the dere treatment.

MrProphet 2006-07-17 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arias
I think that's wrong.

You're using an extroverted/introverted criteria to judge Tsundere-ness, which I believe is surely wrong. I'm also pretty sure that someone like kj1980 will not agree to that definition.

Instead, what "tsundere" seems to be associated with is rather harsh/cold --> gentle/warm.. and also the idea of exclusion and inclusion. Those who are excluded get the tsun treatment, while those who are included (selectively by the tsundere) get the dere treatment.

That's certainly a valid approach, yet I see a problem here as well. A 'tsundere' character usually differentiates the inclusiveness of a character arbirtarily, being warm in one phase and cold in another. This suggests that the tsun-tsun and dere-dere components are determined by the thunderekko herself, not by the object of inclusion/exclusion.

Let's use examples here. Haruhi Suzumiya is usually very tsun-tsun to Kyon, and then, occasionaly, a little dere-dere. All of her dere-dere moments were initiated not by Kyon, but by the change in Haruhi's own attitude. When she herself is happy/relaxed/emotional, she becomes dere-dere. Kyon does not trigger the shift himself.

Same kind of theme is seen in other tsunderekkos as well, so I think the introverted/extroverted approach is a bit more valid.

arias 2006-07-17 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet
Let's use examples here. Haruhi Suzumiya is usually very tsun-tsun to Kyon, and then, occasionaly, a little dere-dere. All of her dere-dere moments were initiated not by Kyon, but by the change in Haruhi's own attitude. When she herself is happy/relaxed/emotional, she becomes dere-dere. Kyon does not trigger the shift himself.

Oh no, that's not a rigid enough analysis.

First, Haruhi was ONLY ever dere to Kyon in any significant sense. Second, she is dere to him only when there is a reasonable amount of privacy and the two of them are engaged in a relatively private interaction.

As such, I can't see how you can say Kyon doesn't seem to influence Haruhi's dereness. Sure, I don't think Kyon "triggers" it as if he had a definite causal link like claps produce sounds. Instead, his presence potentiates the opportunity for dere-ness.. and the situation or Haruhi herself decides what sort of attitude to display towards the people around her, including Kyon. And I do think that's what important.

I mean, even in Tsuyokiss, the "super" tsundere Nagomi didn't melt into pocket-sized puddings whenever the protagonist was around in a public setting...

Srin Tuar 2006-07-17 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFool
I have the ideal candidate for tsundere personality: Viscount Abriel Nei Dorusk Paryunu Lafiel

Ah, one of my long-time favorite characters.

Lafiel probably predates this whole meme as well, and she has a perfactly valid rationale for her behavior:

She has to comport herself as royalty, yet she still wants to have friends/lovers without behaving inappropriately. plus she has no shortage of hubris.

That makes her quite stuffy in public while oft being very lovable in private.

(The crew of her ship could see right through the disguise however)


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