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-   -   Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=37159)

kj1980 2006-10-10 14:26

Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)
 
The anime ended, and you have a whole bunch of clues at your disposal now:

1. The anime itself
2. The manga
3. Frederica Bernkastel's Poems
4. The TIPS
5. The great Wikipedia article
6. Your Qs Answered thread
7. Putting the Pieces Together Thread (in progress)
8. And last but not least, the translated game (if they are going to finish or not, of course)


Utilizing what you've learned, please discuss your thoughts and your theories about what really happened.

eris_sama 2006-10-10 20:23

I'm assuming no spoiler tags are needed since this thread is obviously for people who know, who have seriously thought about it, or who want to be spoiled. I have seen the entire series and read all the above threads. Unfortunately I will never be able to play the game as I know absolutely no Japanese. It seems that not everything is explained in the game but here the main elements as I understand it.

Dam war - Cause a rift in the village with the Sonozaki family on one side and the Houjo family on the other. The latter was ostracized. The Sonozaki family was involved in the kidnapping of the minister's son which forced him to stop the project.

Death of foreman - It seems that who killed the foreman is not that important. All but one culprit was caught. He was probably killed by crazed villagers against the dam, under the influence of the pathogen. The missing culprit was taken by the organization.

Death of Satoko's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. It happened on their vacation. Satoko appears to be responsible as she hated her stepfather. She may have intentional pushed him over and her mother died trying to save him.

Death of Rika's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. The priest might have just succumbed to stress because of the festival preparations. The mother appears to be unstable and committed suicide, possibly afraid of being spirited away after her husband's death.

Death of Satoko's aunt, Satoshi goes missing - I believe Satoshi did kill her, but he was taken by the organization.

Death of Tomitake, but not Takano - As soon as I read there was a mastermind, I suspected Takano. A fake death always happen in a mystery and hers seemed the most like since positively identifying a burnt body is difficult and requires dental records.

Dr. Irie, Tomitake and Takano were working for the military. There's something about the villagers they are investigating that has to do with a virus or some pathogen that lives in the villagers. When this pathogen becomes active, the host suffers from delusions, paranoia, increased sensitivity to the spirit world, and finally explodes into violence. The military might have been looking into harnessing this pathogen for biological warfare purposes. They wanted live specimens when the pathogen is active. They may have developed an innoculation against it but I don't think so. I think the hypodermic needles probably contains a sedative, either for the organization to capture a live specimen or in the case of Rika to subdue Shion. Takano fakes her own death to pursue her own ambitions.

Rika is the main carrier of the pathogen. She is immune to its affects and her presence can inhibit the pathogen. Upon her death the villagers may all go insanely violent. That is the excuse for the elimination of the village.

Oyashiro is not a hideous demon but a cute creature who is trying to help Rika live past June. There's not much she can do but reboot the world. She's the one who haunted Keiichi and probably others who sensed her presence under the influence of the pathogen.

Each time the world reboots the same basic events happen but among the group of friends they take turns being the victum or villain. Rika dies each time either killed by Takano or suicide or some other way. She retains some of her memory but not of her death. The worlds continue their course after Rika's death. It seems Oyashiro is trying to find the world that will allow Rika and her friends to live.

sagematt 2006-10-11 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 702914)
Dam war - Cause a rift in the village with the Sonozaki family on one side and the Houjo family on the other. The latter was ostracized. The Sonozaki family was involved in the kidnapping of the minister's son which forced him to stop the project.

I remember that a TIP or some other person mentioned that it was just another Sonozaki Bluff™. They were not involved at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 702914)
Death of Satoko's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. It happened on their vacation. Satoko appears to be responsible as she hated her stepfather. She may have intentional pushed him over and her mother died trying to save him.

I remember someone saying that Satoko has to shot herself everyday with the vaccine, because she once reached L3 and that's why she behaved like a victim everytime. I'm guessing she went L4 or L5 once and pushed her parents... but I really don't know. Maybe Rika does know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 702914)
Death of Rika's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. The priest might have just succumbed to stress because of the festival preparations. The mother appears to be unstable and committed suicide, possibly afraid of being spirited away after her husband's death.

Have you read Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World?
In one of the chapters, he mentions about some studies reflected that, on some small towns, the woman's death rate (by natural causes) went down before the town's festivities, and then raised after that. The town's oldest women were the ones in charge of the festivities, so it's concluded that they postponed their deaths just enough for them to finish their tasks. So I'm ruling out the "succumbed to stress" theory.

Who knows? Maybe The Hinamizawa Syndrome is at fault yet again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 702914)
Death of Satoko's aunt, Satoshi goes missing - I believe Satoshi did kill her, but he was taken by the organization.

It's clear that, he either killed her, or he watched the culprit kill her. I'm guessing he killed her, at least that's the most immediate conclusion from what I watched.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 702914)
Rika is the main carrier of the pathogen. She is immune to its affects and her presence can inhibit the pathogen. Upon her death the villagers may all go insanely violent. That is the excuse for the elimination of the village.

Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.

MrZombie 2006-10-11 00:39

I think that the kidnapping of the minster's grandson was the work of Takano's organiztion, so as not to lose their source of research subjects.

tehtf 2006-10-11 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by sagematt (Post 703072)

Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.

I once believe in this theory too since it's explictly stated in TIPS and is also the major rationale behind the doings of the "volcanic gas incident" but Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen denied the "hive queen death invockes all village madness" theory as Rika died but after 48 hours the villagers are still sane.

Possible explaination:

1)the vaccine dose (assumed) Rika took during Shion assasination cancelled out the "trigger effect"

2) The "Hive Queen" theory was just a mis-guided theory deduced by Ire's Research Facility (Hey Scientist comes up with wrong theories here and there too)
<-- pesonal preference for the explaination

Spitze 2006-10-11 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sagematt (Post 703072)
Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.

When a hive queen dies, the worker insects create a new queen from one of the existing larvae. In the case of bees, a bee larva is fed royal jelly, which has more nutrients, and so gives the larva the ability to develop into a queen bee.

On a side note, I'd like to point out that Takano is suspicious because when people are of sound mind, she is the only person who has questionable behavior.

Also, if this hasn't been brought up before, notice that the same men in uniform who kidnapped the minister's grandson seem to also be associated with Dr. Irie as seen in Onikakushi-hen.

MrZombie 2006-10-11 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehtf (Post 703231)
I once believe in this theory too since it's explictly stated in TIPS and is also the major rationale behind the doings of the "volcanic gas incident" but Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen denied the "hive queen death invockes all village madness" theory as Rika died but after 48 hours the villagers are still sane.

Possible explaination:

1)the vaccine dose (assumed) Rika took during Shion assasination cancelled out the "trigger effect"

2) The "Hive Queen" theory was just a mis-guided theory deduced by Ire's Research Facility (Hey Scientist comes up with wrong theories here and there too)
<-- pesonal preference for the explaination

Except that in Watangashi-hen Rika was not injected with the serum before Shion tortured her to death,

eris_sama 2006-10-11 12:01

I think the hive mind and all the villagers going insane was an excuse to destroy the villagers or rather the pathogen and the evidence of experiments. Maybe the organization deemed the project was a failure and they couldn't harness its power or they already achieved what they set out to do.

Paranoia833 2006-10-11 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by eris_sama (Post 703525)
I think the hive mind and all the villagers going insane was an excuse to destroy the villagers or rather the pathogen and the evidence of experiments. Maybe the organization deemed the project was a failure and they couldn't harness its power or they already achieved what they set out to do.

I think I've puzzled out the motive, and if I'm right it's not what I expected. Originally I thought the same as you did, but after reading the QnA thread I noticed KJ's comments on the mastermind (Takano's) motive:

Basically judging by what was said there, the 'queen' thing is just a flimsy justification and Takano pretty much wants to exterminate the village for entirely personal reasons, and came up with the queen theory so that she could persuade the military guys to go along with it.

The 'become god' thing in the TIPs was obviously adressed either to her or a descendant of hers, presumably from the original Dr Takano Irie talks about. Judging from that I'm guessing that Takano has some personal grudge against Hinamizawa in general, possibly because of Dr Takano's disgrace, and wants to take the entire village out.

My guess is Takano managed to convince her superiors that wiping out Hinamizawa was necessary, at which point Tomitake and later Irie turned traitor and intended to go public with what they were doing. Hence they were killed off by the other three men in green/grey and Takano. (Which would imply that the decision to kill off Rika was taken at least a few days in advance of the killing, rather than being something Takano did alone and then used as an excuse to get the military to wipe Hinamizawa off the map, unless Tomitake had stumbled upon Takano's plan by accident and then been pinned by her as a traitor or something)

That said there's one flaw in my little theory I can see right away. If Takano really did intend to 'become a god' in the manner the original Dr. Takano described, why get herself killed in the gas disaster in such a way that nobody would find out the truth? I mean from the way the Faded Notebook was worded she wanted something that would get her accomplishments known, but she'd have to know something as big as the Hinamizawa disaster would get covered up. Unless something went wrong after Rika's death it seems nobody ever found out about Takano's involvement in the disaster beyond being one of the early victims, something which will get her name in the papers for maybe a year or two before fading into obscurity along with every other serial killing in history. Guess I've still got some more theorising to do.

tehtf 2006-10-12 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoia833 (Post 703660)
That said there's one flaw in my little theory I can see right away. If Takano really did intend to 'become a god' in the manner the original Dr. Takano described, why get herself killed in the gas disaster in such a way that nobody would find out the truth? I mean from the way the Faded Notebook was worded she wanted something that would get her accomplishments known, but she'd have to know something as big as the Hinamizawa disaster would get covered up. Unless something went wrong after Rika's death it seems nobody ever found out about Takano's involvement in the disaster beyond being one of the early victims, something which will get her name in the papers for maybe a year or two before fading into obscurity along with every other serial killing in history. Guess I've still got some more theorising to do.

Quote from the tips sections of Dr Takano's note http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=134

"I don't care which field you go into. But leave your name for the world to remember. If you cannot achieve this, leave a great accomplishment and result for the world.

Being a human, death will come for you as well. Being a human, a time will come where your body will be cremated into ash. It is fate that the body will turn into ash.

But if you will be able to leave behind a huge accomplishment, your name will continue to live on long after you turn into ash.

People call those whose continue to live without their body as gods.

Your grandfather wanted to become like that, but wasn't able to.

I want you to become a god."

Well at least the gas incident has a huge impact on the Japan society till today (read the manga of higurashi)

aliensporebomb 2006-10-13 14:50

Comment
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sagematt (Post 703072)

Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.

Makes massive sense especially in light of multiple occurrences of a
someone from town being attacked by outsiders suddenly finding
themselves beset by angry townspeople materializing out of
nowhere or assembled very quickly, faster than you could
possibly organize.

Great supposition! I've thought similar things. However, it
does seem a bit simplistic. It's pretty obvious Takano is one
of several villains.

David Johnston 2006-10-21 23:25

Takano's Agenda
 
I would surmise that Takano intended to become a "god" by eating Rika who is, by Takano's estimation, the host for the true Oyashiro-sama. Takano believed that the adoration that Rika gets from being the center of that invisible communications web the infectees seem to have would got to her once she watanagashi'd Rika. She'd become their ruler, and perhaps the ruler of much more. The disease is apparently not very contagious after all. It hasn't been spreading beyond village bounds much even with members of the families now living in Tokyo proper, and Oishi shows no signs of infection despite all the hanging around he's been doing over the last few years. I surmise that it's perhaps one of those things that can be passed through the placental barrier (so that that children are infected in the womb) but otherwise is only contagious if you eat someone or something that is already infected.

K1 however, becomes infected by an injection, apparently. I'm not sure how Takano made it look to him like it was the girls injecting him or how she convinced the girls to inject him, but in order to make a vaccine you have to be able to culture the organism. So, what if Takano makes herself Rika's successor, and then, say, introduces the organism into a vaccination program in Tokyo? Eliminating the townsfolk assuages the government's fears so they'll never see Takano coming.

Regel 2006-10-22 06:54

Quote:

Except that in Watangashi-hen Rika was not injected with the serum before Shion tortured her to death,
Really? I thought that everything was the same: Rika's try to cure Shion (Mion :eyespin: ), her failure, injection. And only then Rika desides to commit suicide, rather than been tortured by Shion.

So, you are sure that in the game there was no injection in Watanagashi-hen, aren't you?

Quote:

I'm not sure how Takano made it look to him like it was the girls injecting him or how she convinced the girls to inject him
Well, it seems that K1 was injected at the beginning of Onikakushi-hen when he went to Dr. Irie's clinic, as he had flu or something (we can see it in Watanagashi-hen manga). I think, the weren't going to kill him, just to investigate the virus.

Quote:

I would surmise that Takano intended to become a "god" by eating Rika who is, by Takano's estimation, the host for the true Oyashiro-sama.
But why should Rike been killed in such way (watanagashied)?
--------------------------------
I'm still questioned with these: what are the government and desease relations?
Versions:
1) It is their biological weapon.

I don't think so. If it is so then neither Takano-Erie-Timitake nor guys who had sent them to Hinamizawa (and if they are not the "government", who is?) know about that. So, imho, it's not like these.

2) It is nature syndrom which they want to investigate.

That's my opinion. First, this is how it looks like in Matsuribayashi-hen (since it's the #8 story, there shouldn't be any "wrong theories" which fool us). Second, when Dr. Takano told them about deseas they hadn't taken it seriously as they did when his granddaughter showed them that notes. If this virus is their bioweapon they woulndn't change their opinion on them.
--------------------------------
About "queen carrier".
If this theory is a fake then nothing happens with people neihter in 1-3-6-7 arks nor in 2-5 arks. The question is: why did they sprayed gas in 1-3-6-7 and didn't do it in 2-5? Since i think government wasn't controlled by Takano and she couldn't deside either to spry it or not, it seems that the "queen carrier" theory isn't a fake.

Klashikari 2006-10-22 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regel (Post 714973)
If this theory is a fake then nothing happens with people neihter in 1-3-6-7 arks nor in 2-5 arks. The question is: why did they sprayed gas in 1-3-6-7 and didn't do it in 2-5? Since i think government wasn't controlled by Takano and she couldn't deside either to spry it or not, it seems that the "queen carrier" theory isn't a fake.

hint : compare how rika died when the disaster occured or not.

Regel 2006-10-22 07:13

Quote:

hint : compare how rika died when the disaster occured or not.
Yes, but the government doesn't interested in the way Rika dies. If it doesn't cause the "madding" of hte whole village they wouldn't spread the gas.

And they didn't. That means watanagased Rika causes "madding", but killed in another way doesn't. And how can it be? I think, there was no madding in 2-5 'cause Rika was cured with Shion's injection.

But MrZombie says there wasn't such a thing in #2.

Klashikari 2006-10-22 07:18

think a bit about the all "oyashiro-sama curse" belief in hinamizawa.
how would the villagers react when they would discover furede rika, the oyashiro priestess, completely desembowled like others "hinamizawa sinners/betrayers" ?

results : fear, disorder, panic, etc.

their almighty god sent its wrath towards its mortal represent, which is, obviously a "ultimate bad omen".

just like keiichi, shion, satoko and rena, the villagers would probably go to some killing frenzy due their rising paranoia

Regel 2006-10-22 07:32

Quote:

how would the villagers react when they would discover furede rika, the oyashiro priestess, completely desembowled like others "hinamizawa sinners/betrayers" ?

results : fear, disorder, panic, etc.

their almighty god sent its wrath towards its mortal represent, which is, obviously a "ultimate bad omen".

just like keiichi, shion, satoko and rena, the villagers would probably go to some killing frenzy due their rising paranoia
But they don't care if Rika is killed by Shion?

Well, i have no objections on this theory - it can be true.
But i still think that "queen carrier" theory is not a fake since i have no confirmation (except for MrZombie's opinion) there wasn't any injection in #2.

niwasatou 2006-10-22 07:46

My theory so far.

Takano wants to wipe out Hinamizawa because of personal grudges.
Since she obviously can't do that on her own, she makes up the whole "Queen Carrier" theory, with which she convinces her "superiors" (the Yamainu Organization?) that Hinamizawa, especially Rika, has to be kept an eye on. She puts through the emergency plan: Hinamizawa Gas Disaster™.
So, Rika is killed by Takano, who has "prepared" one resident to go crazy with her Scrapbooks.
Somewhere inbetween, she kills Tomitake and fakes her death?
Thus the Yamainu "panick" and the emergency plan is carried out.
The residents are lead into the mountains and gassed to death there (which explains K1's surviving).
Plan accomplished?!

(Now, in Matsuribayashi.. fake death.. happy ending.. well, spoil yourself etc. :).)

Klashikari 2006-10-22 07:49

it's not like they don't care, but the impact is highly different.

whatever the villagers think it was shion or mion who killed rika, they would assume she go nuts or anything (not oyashiro related)

but somehow, the impact of the ritual killing will push them to some fear of an apocalypse.


that theory aside, the facts are 2 arcs didn't get the disaster show that the fact rika was watanagashi-ed will permit takano to get some ugly justification for wiping hinamizawa.

the queen theory is however solid, especially it was in Dr takano mind. (though he wasn't taken seriously, as stated in Yagouchi's Quarry (Piece #10) )
the major hole come from meakashi hen :/

Regel 2006-10-22 08:19

Quote:

takano to get some ugly justification for wiping hinamizawa.
First of all, does Takano really wants to wipe Hinamizawa because of personal grudges?

As we know, she does all of these to become a "god"? How the Hinamizawa wiping will make her "god"?

And with the "Queen Carrier Theory" we get this: she want's to get that "queen" virus somehow from Rika. Then she'll become (as she thinks) the "reincarnation of oyashiro-sama" herself. In other word she thinks she will become a "god".
------------------------------

And what organizations do we have?
What is SDF and what is the "Yamainu Organization"?


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