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-   -   Kanon - 2006 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=41093)

xris 2007-01-03 18:50

Kanon - 2006 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll
 
Welcome to the discussion thread for Kanon, Episode 14.

Thread Guidelines
  • No telling or asking for raws.
  • Try to keep spoilers from the game or manga out of the anime thread.
    If you need to in reply to someone with a reference to the game or manga, either PM them or use clearly marked spoiler tags (see example below).
  • Discuss your expectations of the episode if not aired.
  • Be polite to your fellow forum members.
  • Try to keep the discussion on topic and future episode spoilers out of the thread whenever possible.

Spoiler Tag Example
[spoiler=title]Don't forget to use a title for the spoiler![/spoiler]
...becomes...
Spoiler for title:

eggplant 2007-01-04 12:08

Just when you thought the arc couldn't get any better, you get disproved.
Spoiler for Episode 14:

Cyz 2007-01-04 13:53

Episode 14 screenshots courtesy of Random Curiosity. Look at it at your own risk.
Spoiler for Hae!:

Klashikari 2007-01-04 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyz (Post 788966)
Episode 14 screenshots courtesy of Random Curiosity. Look at it at your own risk.
Spoiler for Hae!:

IIRC, skane said we would only encounter sayuri's past with an OVA or the game, so looks like it's "new" ^^;
humpf... rather hard to not look the screencaps... have-to-survive-until-the-raw-is-released ~~

Sushi-Y 2007-01-04 15:13

A very deep episode that covered Sayuri's story. The second half is probably powerful enough to stun most viewers. Probably one of those episodes that you should watch spoiler free.

Spoiler:

Next week... hmm... Mai's finale?

Kinny Riddle 2007-01-04 15:19

Spoiler for this episode:


BTW, Ayu looks cute in that new sweater outfit. :love:

Next episode (15) will mark a milestone for Kyoto Animation, as it will be the first episode they have produced and aired beyond the usual 1-cur season (~12-14 episodes).

panzerfan 2007-01-04 17:05

Kyoto Animation... well, save for Inuyasha I suppose, which isn't really their own profile work, had not made anything longer than 14 episodes, so this is a first.

This episode must be seen to be believed. I don't think commenting on this is appropriate for now... other than that Yuiichi's crisis management skills are exemplary.

Meophist 2007-01-04 17:18

The first minute is one of the funniest I remember in anime.

Vexx 2007-01-04 18:17

well.. I spoiled myself a bit by looking at the screen caps but instead of being annoyed at myself, I am now spinning in my chair in anticipation. It looks totally freaking brilliant...
I think we're seeing that KyoAni does something that so many other companies fail at.. they storyboard the entire series and they manage their time budget successfully; and they do their research. Trying not to turn into a KyoAni groupie but damn there's no reason that the rest of the pack can't come closer to this level.

Rasuberi 2007-01-04 18:52

I love you KyoAni~! Waah. That was a great episode. I'm kind of glad I watched the Toei version all those years ago, but haven't played the game. I get to know a little bit of what happens throughout the series, thus I'm not completely lost, but KyoAni not only makes it 10000% better, but also leaves in some really poweful parts...

Spoiler:

Can't wait to see how they end Mai's story. I want to understand her past, didn't get to in Toei's version. I wish it didn't have to end though, I'm not really interested in Shiori, I've never liked her at all...

Pakxenon 2007-01-04 20:14

I see
Spoiler:
and
Spoiler:
and
Spoiler:
so it's high expectations.

Zaris 2007-01-04 20:16

Okay...


Premise
I've never been so anxious to watch an episode for a while. Immediately from 14's premise, I was fed a particular mood not just from the music but from the general tone of voice from the characters present. It wasn't so much as to highlight the comedy for me (although I did feel abit humored from it), but to elude to what I kind of expected to happen in the next 24 minutes. Something terrible was going to happen. The premise totally made me feel that way.

As it is the habit of most people here to point out the funny, I shall be so glad as to point out the serious... from a Kanon first-timer point of view. Take note that nothing of what I say below is a spoiler if you have seen episode 14. These are based on MY conclusions from what I've seen so far without any knowledge from the game, the 2002 series, or any other canon source.

If you haven't seen it yet, just skip my post until you do (will separate with some spaces)...













First Half
So it starts out kind of funny again. It kinda made me forget the storm brewing. But I am glad that some of the questions I've had for a while have been answered, at least partially. The demons have been showing up ever since Yuuichi arrived, which explains not only why it showed up on the school grounds in episode three when Yuuichi clearly wasn't there that evening, but also why the demons attack characters other than Mai. Well actually, the latter isn't really explained. I'm just left believing that the five demons (three now) are simply a low-intelligence, high strength noncorporeal being. Sounds like any monster you can find in a typical fantasy story or game. Anyways, it appears that the demons have a general idea of who they want to attack; they just can't figure out who is who.

Also, we're presented a flashback of a younger version of Mai, which confirms that they indeed had some sort of a history at least seven years ago (juxtaposing the opening title sequence with what we saw here, there is absolutely no mistake). However, is Yuuichi the "friend" that Mai was referring to back in episode 13, the one she said disappeared a long time ago? It is highly possible, but we won't know until later episodes present more facts. But really, my gut feeling says 'yes'.

Assuming for the moment that my gut feeling is correct, what's going to happen when Mai suddenly discovers that Yuuichi is her friend from long ago? What will Yuuichi think of her when his memories resurface? The present that Nayuki gets for Yuuichi to Mai will no doubt play an important role as twice we've seen a younger version of Mai, and twice we see her with the present. It's only a matter of time now... a much anticipated matter of time...

As for what Mai thinks of Sayuri and vice versa, I'll reserve that for the end.


Second Half
Sayuri's little story explains a lot about her personality. It's odd, however, that Sayuri doesn't quite sound like Sayuri when she's doing a voice over. lol But whatever! The presentation was good, the mood was set well, and I really felt a tear in my eye. And for me, it's hard to shed tears when I've seen TV shows and movies left and right. Sad moments get cliche, but this is pretty original presentation of it, or at least a kind that I haven't seen in a while. The moment I speak of is in particular:

Spoiler for the moment when:


Then we get to the disaster. Oh Christ.

You know, when I first saw the demons, I didn't think they were much more than brainless tentacle things and Mai was just keeping them at bay. But after this...this, man. They're totally lethal and they're out for blood. To think I was treating the events so lightheartedly. However, after witnessing a punishment not unlike Utawarerumono's episode 22, I was saying the same thing over and over, "How could you!?" Those demons have no shame. Now I'm full of rage and apathy; those last three need to DIE.

How did this happen? I suppose you could look at it both ways. In a way, Yuuichi's at fault for being so careless and forgetting things here and there. I'm not talking about the stuff from seven years ago. I'm talking about Nayuki's gift to Yuuichi. He totally forgot that. And he totally forgot the phone call Sayuri was going to give him. I suppose he was pressured by Nayuki that evening to eat dinner with the family, but even so, he didn't have to leave the house. Perhaps realizing his carelessness (kind of a tough word than what I'm trying to emphasize, but it's the only word I can think of at the moment) will trigger a evolution in him not unlike the sense of responsibility and maturity he displayed to Makoto only a few episodes ago. He's still keeping secrets to himself; I'm just hoping he begins to think of the consquences of his actions.

Also, this could be Mai's fault as well. I don't really know how Mai got to the way she is, although the next episode definately could present something to explain it. But her keeping secrets and unusual form of talk and action in a civilized world has gotten not only her in trouble, but Sayuri in trouble too (oops I guess I spoiled what I was saying two paragraphs above lol). If only Mai had been a little more forthcoming. "Tell her the truth!" I think to myself. But it just doesn't happen. It might happen when all the demons have been exterminated. But now, it's too late. Distancing yourself from your friends when potential hostilities are everpresent will only hurt those around you, Mai. And in the end, you hurt yourself too.

Poor Mai. Poor Yuuichi. Now that they are aware with their own eyes and touch the implications of their behaviors, I certainly hope that they will redeem themselves in episode 15. Mai especially. Jesus, she was devastated at a level I couldn't predict. It appears that Mai is able to express emotion (evident from as early as episode 12); she just has a problem or lack of experience knowing when to express it. This will most likely draw the two even closer. And how will Nayuki's present affect their friendship? I hope for the better as well.


Thoughts and Comments
When I joined AnimeSuki, one of the first things I learned was how important episode 14 was to a Japanese series (this was from one person though. I could be wrong). Apparently, it's some kind of lucky number or a number in which the episode presented would be extremely well animated or reveal some important plotline, plot twist, or something else along those words. So I was really counting on this episode to be very good. It didn't disappoint. The animation itself had some problems towards the end when Mai was venting her frustration. But action moments (oops. Spoiled it, didn't I?) I've learned is very hard to draw fluidly. So I think the next series I watch I should more accustomed to it and have lower expectations on animation quality. Everything else is just great. Nothing I can really complain about.

Of course, there is the possibility that this is an intentional look. See, I'm slightly disgruntled with Mai's look when she fights. The exception is episode 12. In 13 and 14, her movements seem a little inhuman for lack of a better word. But if Kyoto Animation is doing this on purpose, to give Mai an "otherworldly" feel, then I guess I can't argue with it. What do others have to say about this? Well, Mai is very different... different from many other kinds of stoic anime characters I've seen so far. I guess I could just take it at face value and say her action drawing reflects her uniqueness. Yeah.

This Defies Logic: Towards the end of episode three, Yuuichi asks Ayu her cell phone number so he can contact her. But Ayu says she doesn't know what a cell phone is. This could imply that Yuuichi has a cell phone himself. However, in this episode, he uses a phone booth. Don't you have a cell phone, Yuuichi!? (If you wanted to get Ayu's phone number, you would pull out your cell phone, wouldn't you? So he would have one, wouldn't he?) However, this could be offset by the suggestion that they are living in a time before mass cell phone usage. The story of Kanon was made in 1999, before lots of media booms like dot com or bittorrent or possibly cell phones.

I like the reference to the actual Canon song as it kinda gives a feel to the overall title of the series (but it's C, not K lol).

This will probably create a mass discussion. Suki (好き) mean 'like'. Dai-suki (大好き) means 'really like'. Ai suru (愛する) technically means 'love'. Of all three, the last one is probably the least used (or I'm watching all the wrong animes. lol). There are a ton of instances where in common Japanese language, people substitute Ai for Dai-suki. In some cases, the relative amount of love is the same thing. In Ai Yori Aoshi, Dai-suki is used alllllll the time. In others like Lamune or Matantei Loki Ragnarok, Ai is used to separate love from like. In the other cases, just plain Suki is the equivalent of Ai. I think it takes a native to really separate the meaning of each three. There are probably a different amount of factors that go with it too - such as tone of voice or context.

So what does it mean when Mai says "Sayuri-san no koto ga suki. Dai-suki dakara..."? (Literal translation: "I like Sayuri-san. Because I really like her...") I won't answer this. I'll leave it to you guys instead and comment other people's responses if I have something to say. I've said a lot already. heh



Lengthy post because I've waited for episode 14 since the preview, and as a result I've had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to see and my satisfactions/displeasures after I finished watching it. Kudos to the those who read through. To those that haven't seen it yet, you'll enjoy it. It's almost as up there as episode 12. But yeah, I knew it was a sad episode the moment it started.

Cyz 2007-01-04 21:43

Spoiler:

Shiroth 2007-01-04 21:49

There are not a lot of shows that have you saying "this is the best episode so far" like Kanon.. yes, looks like i'm saying it again.

Spoiler:

monir 2007-01-04 22:25

There is a thread in the General Anime section of the forum which asks about the anime that made a fan cry. I never posted a response in that thread because I never really cried watching an anime. As self conceited as it may sound, I'm kind of proud of that. So, to my shock and incredulity, I was in the verge of shedding my first tear.

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/chicky102.gif

I held back in the end. Phew!

My first 10 for the Kanon series goes to this episode! KyoAni is simply light years ahead in the anime industry of Japan when it comes to TV series. Watching the series Air gave me a very good idea how good this studio really is at animating, but I wasn't really impressed by the story (no offense to the ardently disapproving Air-fans.) I figured the studio will feature series that will appeal to a certain crowd from here on (gamers) by picking select titles and will continue the trend for excellent animation. Then a series like Suzumiya Haruhi comes along and erases all my doubts, but once again the doubt is raised when Kanon 2006 is announced. I was doubtful by the nagging fact that no other studio has ever been able to maintain a level of consistency (let alone this level) in overall animation when a series has more than 14 episodes. KyoAni has yet to break the barrier and delve into the land of never-done, but I'm very confident, more so after watching this episode, that they will be setting a precedent. It makes me very happy.

The point of that whole pointless message is I very much appreciate how this series has been conducted so far, and it all thanks to KyoAni.

edit: looks like I've missed out on Zaris' knowing the use of spoiler tags, though it would have been better to use spoiler tags on the whole description for the sake of subtlety. :)

Zaris 2007-01-04 23:08

Well, I know how to use the spoiler tags (just look halfway through my post above lol). Xris and Catgirls puts it up at the start of each discussion thread and I take it very seriously. As I mentioned, unless the person browsing this thread hasn't seen the episode yet, I don't believe I've spoiled anything. I keep my points as general as possible and I limit my discussion exclusively up to the seen episode. Everything I've typed is either seen or said fact or speculation that anyone could have derived from the information provided of the series up to the here and now.

Of course, I'll always use spoiler tags for, but not limited to, the following reasons:
- Excessive discussion on anything not yet presented in the series
- Comparing/Contrasting series to content found in the games or manga they originate

But yeah, I completely understand your worries since it was a rather lengthy and intimidating post. But I've delved into many long posts before. I know all too well the blight that comes with facts exposed before you want to know about it. I just thought that we could begin the discussion earlier as this thread is designed to do. = |




While I can't say a lot about Kyoto Animation, I can concur with monir that their animation style is supurb. I've only seen Haruhi and Kanon but they maintain a level of consistancy that's pretty appealing. Nice human-like figures, detail in the eyes, a non-static background, few pannings of single frame shots, and CG that blends pretty well (although I'm not sure if they're in charge of that). By the way, when you say they have yet to delve into the land of never-done, you mean that Kyoto Animation hasn't as of yet animated any original stories - stories that didn't come from manga or games or novels but from anime that was made to be on the tv screen first and foremost? Do you understand what I'm asking?

Skane 2007-01-04 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaris (Post 789507)
~ By the way, when you say they have yet to delve into the land of never-done, you mean that Kyoto Animation hasn't as of yet animated any original stories - stories that didn't come from manga or games or novels but from anime that was made to be on the tv screen first and foremost? Do you understand what I'm asking?

With the start of Ep15, it will mark the first time in KyoAni's history that they have done a 2-cour series( 24-26 episodes) officially. A lot of 2-cour series suffer from animation deficiencies( to put it mildly) and monir, amongst many others, are hoping that KyoAni will set a precedent and show the other animation companies on how to budget and storyboard a 2-cour series properly.

Cheers.

Thelastguardian 2007-01-04 23:34

Excellent as episode 14 may be, I was severely disappointed by how much they cut off Sayuri's self-confession.

Spoiler for 14:


The rest of the episode are again, amazing; But I am going to leave the praising for other people...

And yes, episode 14 had me on top of my seat thru the whole episode...

Ascaloth 2007-01-04 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian (Post 789524)
Excellent as episode 14 may be, I was severely disappointed by how much they cut off Sayuri's self-confession.

Spoiler for 14:


The rest of the episode are again, amazing. I am going to praising those parts for other people...


I'll look on the bright side, actually. Even a God-blessed studio like KyoAni have to make series like Kanon with some gaps in the original storyline....

...because if they don't, where are they going to get the material to make OVAs after the series is done? :D

Leo_Otaku 2007-01-05 00:19

Such a good episode it had me crying at Sayuri's part it was so well done.

And no Toei did not do a Sayuri background. The part with the song Canon playing in the cafe was also a nice effect. Poor Ayu...


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