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-   -   Growing out of anime (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=49744)

Veritas 2007-06-24 00:50

Growing out of anime
 
I'm finding anime so damn boring these days. I suppose, when you get a medium that's as old as this one, you're bound to find the same ideas being recycled. I was walking around my hometown fair today with my mom, and after remarking that everything being sold was essentially the same crap that has been there every year, she said "There really is nothing new under the sun." And after cruising back home and trying to watch Gurren Lagann, I realized that that maxim applies to anime as well, it had just never occurred to me.

I remember back, hell about 10 years ago exactly, when manga was relegated to one tiny bookshelf in some dingy corner of a bookstore, if there was even any at all. Before Bittorrent, when I used to order series from fansubbers and get them on tape. Ranma 1/2 broke me in, and I still don't even know what struck me as being so awesome about it, but I guess at the time I'd never seen non-superhero comics. Looking back, I realize that I could ignore what would piss off the current me. The juvenile humor, the unnecessary tit shots, the ridiculous martial arts and lack of plot. Now I see a million anime being torrented and see the same thing, only maybe with better animation. Bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs. I wonder who the hell would eat this up, then I start paying attention to what some other people say and realize that this anime is made for those people. And there are a lot of those people. What's worse is some of them seem to be aware that what they're watching is the same thing they've watched before and they're fine with it. I mean, what I was saying before is that you're bound to have some anime be derivative as fuck, but when a huge chunk of it is stuff someone else has made before, well, what the hell is the point? Why do I have to wade through 20 harems a season to find something I might want to watch? Why are people still buying the 60th version of Mario Kart? Does everyone think that sticking a "new and improved" on the same formula actually makes it better? I've lost my patience with the whole world.

G. Zeus 2007-06-24 01:03

Quote:

And after cruising back home and trying to watch Gurren Lagann, I realized that that maxim applies to anime as well, it had just never occurred to me.
...
I've lost my patience with the whole world.
Well, there's always suicide. ;)

Seriously though, I think you're blaming people too much. This repetition is one of consequences of decades of development. If a regular otaku from our present was to be transported to the past and allowed to have his own animation studio, he would have probably been hailed as a genius several times over by just coughing up with the cliches we're now so familiar (and sick) with. Basically, it's actually harder to come up with something new today compared to the time when everything was still new and people were just experimenting with things.

Besides, it's not like artists are the only ones running the industry. Businessmen may produce and promote a certain series simply because another one similar to it was insanely successful in the past (A.K.A. the "tried and tested formula").

Besides, these things that you've mentioned
Quote:

The juvenile humor, the unnecessary tit shots, the ridiculous martial arts and lack of plot. Now I see a million anime being torrented and see the same thing, only maybe with better animation. Bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs.
sound like shounen. There are other titles in the seinen and josei subsets, y'know?

Spark 2007-06-24 01:04

Sounds pretty crazy mate. Yeah, I can see how some things are a remake of certain other series in a certain perspective. But, to be honest.. if you don't really enjoy watching a certain series, then why watch another series that's vaguely similar to it? In the same mindset, if you did enjoy a certain series.. why not watch another that's similar to it? There's always new stuff coming out (and I mean totally new stuff). Someone's always going to come up with some type of new plot twist. Hell, I haven't seen that much anime so far compared to more than half of the people here, but I've seen a pretty good amount.. and I would totally watch something with similar plots if I enjoyed the first one. Like I said.. if it brings me enjoyment, why not? I suppose I'd be one of those people who don't really care about the same plot deals. As long as it's a good one, I'm game.

But hey, maybe you are growing out of anime. It happens. I grew out of video games.. I used to play them a couple of hours a day but the only time I touch my ps2 now is to play Guitar Hero when I have friends over and we have nothing else to do. It happens.

Fact of the matter is, if you aren't getting as much enjoyment out of anime as you used to.. it happens. Things in life get old to those who have been around. But, for those of us who haven't grown up with the old stuff, this new stuff is just as amazing to our eyes. And I believe some things do improve with time. ^^

wontaek 2007-06-24 01:15

Well, you can grow out of movies, literatures, music, games, sports, pretty much anything. Everything has its limits, and if something pushes back the limits to open new possibilities, that is a historical event that most people won't have the fortune to appreciate. I still remember the famous line by 19th century US Patent General " Everything that can be invented has been invented. " Think about that line in different perspectives.

Solace 2007-06-24 01:16

People hate change. They find something they like, and they'll stick with it. It's that fear of taking a chance and realising you don't like something that keeps people from branching out much. It's a sure bet, a comfortable thing, that keeps bringing people back to sequels and rehashed ideas.

However, truly unique ideas that don't make people uncomfortable with the product are also rare. In order to create a profit, a business must find a mass marketable "hook", or be doomed to niche products forever. Since profit > * in most societies, this puts a pressure on creators to push out generic rehashed product most of the time and take a chance on something different some of the time. It's a tough balance to strike. However, they also cater to audiences. If creating poor or generic product is turning a profit, why stop? Best example I can think of at the moment is Electronic Arts and thier yearly sports games and franchises.

Personally, I'm used to wading through crap to find the diamond in the rough, as it were. I have no problem finding enjoyment in the everyday product because it makes finding that one special product....well, that much more special.

So yeah, anime, like everything else, is full of generic formula junk that isn't all that new. When I first started watching anime I had backlogs of great shows to pick out and watch, and now that I'm starting to watch the latest shows, having exhausted most of the older "best of the best", it's easier to point out the good from the bad.

If everything was great, nothing would be. Be thankful there are times when something great rises up above the rest of the crowd. And hey, sometimes people really do grow out of things they used to like. Not a big deal. You take a break, and try something new. Sometimes coming back can be like falling in love all over again, and sometimes it's evidence you really have outgrown it.

Asai 2007-06-24 01:23

If you think everything is the same, or just remakes, then yo need to look harder. Pretty much as simple as that. There are some excellent unique stories out there. Off the top of my head (since I was just talking about it elsewhere) Saiunkoku Monogatari is a prime example. Nothing else quite like it. The only thing I could compare to it is Juuni Kokuki. Certainly not 'just another harem' or 'full of tits'.

In fact, this season, I can't really think of many harem series. Hayate, maybe-kinda. Though it's certainly not traditional harem, if it counts at all. Maybe a couple series I missed, though. I don't keep up with everything.

Quote:

Bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs.
If that's all you find in what you're watching, you -really- need to look harder. Check out something like Death Note, Sola, Dennou Coil for starters. None of those things are present in any of those three series.

Of course popular formulas are reused, but there are always series every season that err away from the popular and normal. If you're too lazy to find them, that's really your problem. With such resources as this very forum, anidb, ANN and Wikipedia, there's no excuse for not being able to find something to suit your tastes.

If there really -is- nothing you can stand, then you're 'over' anime. Go watch TV instead. Oh, wait, TV is even worse, with far fewer original or unique concepts and stories actually being put on screen. Guess you're out of luck.

Kyuusai 2007-06-24 01:54

There is a LOT of repetition in anime.

And American TV. And music. And books. And handicrafts.

You're going to find that in any medium. That's why I don't pay for cable or use the tuner in my car stereo.

However, original content DOES show up. If you exclude an entire medium because you're dissatisfied with the works currently existing in that medium, you're just shutting yourself off to original works when they do show up.

Bottom line: Generalizing about a medium doesn't do a lick of good.

Deathkillz 2007-06-24 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wontaek (Post 1008708)
I still remember the famous line by 19th century US Patent General " Everything that can be invented has been invented. " Think about that line in different perspectives.

listen to this man :heh:

theres only so many genre types you can come up with and the ones yet to be discovered are rare and far in between...but from time to time you do find little gems hidden amongst all the muck...i have to say for myself that some series recently has lost their previous touch (maybe because i was inexperienced about a year and a half ago so anything related to anime at that time seems "fresh" in my perspective) ~ my as time goes and the amount of series you watch mounts up you do begin to get picky...but if you pass your limits in patience then the best thing would be just to stop for a few weeks and return...maybe by that time the urge will be back? :)

Ascaloth 2007-06-24 03:36

I believe I've said it before when you came to do your trollish stuff in the Kanon subforum, and at this point, I'll say it again in the host language of anime; Sayonara.

That is all.

False Dawn 2007-06-24 03:53

Pro-tip: look harder.

If you think all anime series are about fanservice and copied ideas, then you're obviously not watching the right series. Yes, there are more series edging towards pure fanservice - but there are still a number of series each season that are trying to do something different. I mean, take the current season for a start:
you have Bokurano, Claymore, Sola, Lucky Star - I'd suggest that all of these bring something new to the series that came before them.

Also, you can't grow out of something that people of all ages can enjoy. You can "lose interest" but growing out of suggests that you think anime is a phase specifically for young (or should I say, inexperienced) people, when that's just not the case.

Kaioshin Sama 2007-06-24 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veritas (Post 1008693)
I'm finding anime so damn boring these days. I suppose, when you get a medium that's as old as this one, you're bound to find the same ideas being recycled. I was walking around my hometown fair today with my mom, and after remarking that everything being sold was essentially the same crap that has been there every year, she said "There really is nothing new under the sun." And after cruising back home and trying to watch Gurren Lagann, I realized that that maxim applies to anime as well, it had just never occurred to me.

I remember back, hell about 10 years ago exactly, when manga was relegated to one tiny bookshelf in some dingy corner of a bookstore, if there was even any at all. Before Bittorrent, when I used to order series from fansubbers and get them on tape. Ranma 1/2 broke me in, and I still don't even know what struck me as being so awesome about it, but I guess at the time I'd never seen non-superhero comics. Looking back, I realize that I could ignore what would piss off the current me. The juvenile humor, the unnecessary tit shots, the ridiculous martial arts and lack of plot. Now I see a million anime being torrented and see the same thing, only maybe with better animation. Bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs. I wonder who the hell would eat this up, then I start paying attention to what some other people say and realize that this anime is made for those people. And there are a lot of those people. What's worse is some of them seem to be aware that what they're watching is the same thing they've watched before and they're fine with it. I mean, what I was saying before is that you're bound to have some anime be derivative as fuck, but when a huge chunk of it is stuff someone else has made before, well, what the hell is the point? Why do I have to wade through 20 harems a season to find something I might want to watch? Why are people still buying the 60th version of Mario Kart? Does everyone think that sticking a "new and improved" on the same formula actually makes it better? I've lost my patience with the whole world.

I think you are exagerrating the current state of anime in terms of shallowness. Even at the peak of the dating sim to anime conversion trend there were maybe 6 or so harem series a season at the maximum, plus I'm not seeing boobs at all anymore. Not very many characters are old enough to have any this season or the next one really. We've actually gone from away from boobs for the most part. Bad dialogue is in the eye of the beholder as is what constitues a good or a weak story. Fake characters are mostly a problem of the dating sim conversion genres own shortcomings which is being remedied currently with a new emphasis on doing the anime first and then the game. The only huge gun I can think of that isn't mounted on a mecha unit is Yoko's gun in Tengen Toppa, which you like so there's some confusion here. Stupid Misunderstandings is a comedy staple of series such as Frasier so they will always be around in one form or another. Tears, well people do cry so I need more info on why they are bad.

Yeah so don't you think you are blowing things a wee bit out of proportion. I agree that some stuff is derivative, but like everybody is saying, you need to find your limit and then choose the series you like that fit the bill. Even during my dark years from 2004-2006 I could find at least a couple series a year that were really enjoyable to me, nowadays it should be even easier. I'm actually having a hard time picking shows to watch each night because there are so many I want to devote my time too.

Asai 2007-06-24 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama (Post 1008890)
plus I'm not seeing boobs at all anymore. None of the characters are old enough to have any this season or the next one really.

Um, Claymore? Darker than Black? Kaze no Stigma? (okay, main girl is a teen, main guy isn't though.) Lovely Complex is about later year high-schoolers. The girls all have breasts. No lolis there. Moonlight Mile has some graphic sex scenes with mature women. Nodame Cantabile is about college students. Seirei no Moribito; female lead who is 30.

Those are just a few 'mature' series I'm currently following with adult or near characters. You can hardly say none are that old. Though I know you're on some sort of crusade against lolism. It's unfair to say there are no chars old enough to have breasts.

Ascaloth 2007-06-24 04:40

Besides, it seems like someone's forgotten all about the infamous "Nayuki-jiggle". :heh: :p

Kaioshin Sama 2007-06-24 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asai (Post 1008895)
Um, Claymore? Darker than Black? Kaze no Stigma? (okay, main girl is a teen, main guy isn't though.) Lovely Complex is about later year high-schoolers. The girls all have breasts. No lolis there. Moonlight Mile has some graphic sex scenes with mature women. Nodame Cantabile is about college students. Seirei no Moribito; female lead who is 30.

Those are just a few 'mature' series I'm currently following with adult or near characters. You can hardly say none are that old. Though I know you're on some sort of crusade against lolism. It's unfair to say there are no chars old enough to have breasts.

Alright, how about if I just stick to saying not as many characters this season as in past ones. My main point was to state that Veritas' statement that we keep seeing more boobs and more tit shots isn't true and in fact we are arguably seeing about the same or less as a result of the trend towards younger characters.

Oh and I enjoy loli VERY much, but I need to sort of neutralize myself to it in order to make an observational point. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm on a crusade against it though. :confused:

Asai 2007-06-24 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama (Post 1008936)
Alright, how about if I just stick to saying not as many characters this season as in past ones. My main point was to state that Veritas' statement that we keep seeing more boobs and more tit shots isn't true and in fact we are arguably seeing about the same or less as a result of the trend towards younger characters.

That's more appropriate. :D There aren't as many older characters as there perhaps once was. But there are still series with adult main characters. Looking through my list of current series, about a third of them focus on adults. But that still means two thirds are about kids or teens (well, teens... not following anything about pre-teens at the moment. I dropped the one I was.)

4Tran 2007-06-24 11:59

For the most part, I think that originality is not all that it's cracked up to be. While a new idea can make a show more interesting, playing with old ideas can have its merits as well - it largely comes down to the execution.

To address Veritas' points:
Bad dialogue - that's always been with us, and it's never going to change, whether you're watching shows or reading books. There are exceptions, but it'll require more effort on your part.

Tit shot - there's less of it than there has been in the last few years. You can credit changes in the enforcement of Japanese broadcasting standards for that. It's gotten to the point where it's common to see a show censored for broadcast, then released unedited on the DVD.

Weak story - some shows are plot-dependent while others aren't. The ones that aren't tend to have fairly strong stories. You just have to be more selective if you need a strongly plotted show.

Bouncing breasts - you can blame Gainax for this one - they pioneered the Gainax bounce in 1986. I'm not sure how this can detract from a show unless you're talking about Eiken or Divergence Eve or something like that.

Stupid misunderstandings - let's see... This has been around since Jane Austen in the early 1800s; or if you prefer Eastern literature, the Butterfly Lovers in the Tang Dynasty. Besides, it's very human to do stupid things because of misunderstandings.

Tears - see above with the misunderstandings. As long as a show isn't as melodramatic as Oniisama E, I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

Fake characters - Huh? How's this a complaint? And how does this mesh with the complaints about misunderstandings and tears?

Huge gun - how's this a cause for complaint? And as Kaioshin_Sama said, there aren't all that many of them right now.



Right now, there's probably more innovation in anime than there has been since the early '90s. Not only are we seeing a bunch of unusual shows like Dennou Coil, Oh! Edo Rocket, Moonlight Mile, and Emma, but there's also been a resurgence in mecha shows and there have never been as many shoujo/josei shows on at once. While the proportion of unusual shows may be less than in the past, the reason is that there's just so much more anime being broadcast than ever before. There's literally never been a better time to branch out and try some new genres.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asai
That's more appropriate. :D There aren't as many older characters as there perhaps once was. But there are still series with adult main characters. Looking through my list of current series, about a third of them focus on adults. But that still means two thirds are about kids or teens (well, teens... not following anything about pre-teens at the moment. I dropped the one I was.)

I've just got a slight correction: there are just as many shows about adults as there have ever been. It's just that there are relatively more shows that feature teenagers. If there's anything to complain about, it's that there aren't a whole lot of shows about pre-teens that aren't strictly for children. I'd love to see something else like Figure 17.

kayos 2007-06-24 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veritas (Post 1008693)
Why do I have to wade through 20 harems a season to find something I might want to watch?

I don't think it was their intention to try to appeal to one individual's taste.

Kaoru Chujo 2007-06-24 13:01

A lot of anime is made for kids, so of course you can grow out of it. But even some of the kid stuff can be appreciated as time goes on. And there are lots of anime made for people a bit older.

As others have said, you may have grown tired of shounen memes, so you could try seinen and josei shows, or even some of the shoujo shows, which can be emotionally more complex. Hitohira, Saiunkoku, Seirei no Moribito, Nodame Cantabile, Lucky Star, Emma, Moonlight Mile, Dennou Coil, Darker than Black, maybe even Kaze no Stigma, which seems like shounen with a difference to me. NANA is a shoujo/josei masterpiece. And Touka Gettan is strange and special, with real eroticism rather than jiggling ecchi silliness. I'm not sure what category it could fall into. It and its ero-game are being released around the same time, but it is far from being a "harem" show.

And the fact that a show is about adults doesn't mean it's an adult show, nor do teens mean a teen show. I think that animes used to be made for kids even more than they are now, and the presence of adults was mainly role-modelling for young teen boys. And on the other side of the coin, there are lots of teens in War and Peace.

Veritas 2007-06-24 19:31

I completely forgot I even wrote this.

I guess I'll try spreading out. Maybe because shounen is widespread and generally popular with most people (including myself, sometimes). I'll watch some of these and see if I can stop panicking.

Wosho128 2007-06-24 20:08

I understand man, I understand. ;_;

Anime can get repetitive and boring sometimes. There were periods in my fandom where I couldn't bare to watch an anime for a month or so. I don't know about all of your circumstances but you might want to take a brief break? I found that after a month or two of not watching anime; I grew to appreciate it again. During a break, you might find a new hobby to occupy your time or you'll harbor the flames of love for the medium again?

I understand your feelings; I've went through them many times. Your interests may have changed so it's normal to feel that way. @_@


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