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I tought so. Just commenting to who didn't picked. Most seen to notice Itsuki, but few noticed Mikru. Poor girl. :p |
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Similarly, Yuki couldn't be called a main character before Disappearance. Now, however, every novel, and most storys, have at last one important scene for her (unlike Mikuru and Itsuki), so I would call her a main character now. (still not as important as Haruhi) |
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In Vol. 7 and Wandering Shadow, she almost has no importance whatsoever, and, at that point, she has pretty much stopped driving the plot entirely. It's merely the nature of her existence that causes things to happen at that point, not her powers themselves... you'll see what I mean. Quote:
I've said before that the series isn't even about Haruhi... it's about what Haruhi does to Kyon and how Kyon deals with it. She really isn't a main character as much as she is a driving force, and that's why I referred to her as a secondary character. Quote:
And I said IF you wanted to judge by number of lines and "screentime". Of course Nagato and Koizumi aren't main characters... in my opinion the main character, and the only truly main character, is Kyon. Quote:
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He only acts gay to screw with Kyon, who he read as a homophobe from very early on. Quote:
In all honesty, only Mikuru is truly plot-unimportant, and even then... there's her older self... |
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This transition may or may not be intentional on Tanigawa's part, it may just be him letting Haruhi as a person fall-out-of-focus, but if played well, he has set up future stories for intriguing examinations of the tension between Haruhi the person and Haruhi the force. Quote:
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Overall, taking all the novel material at least as far as I've read, Haruhi is onscreen more often than not. That includes all of Novel 4. Quote:
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She is not a secondary character, Kaisos. Quote:
And what is wrong with Haruhi post-Sigh, Kaisos? Seriously, what's your beef with her post-Sigh? She's a very nice, commendable character post-Sigh, as I've outlined in all three of my recent novel chapter reviews on this thread. If you disagree with my assessment of Haruhi in those chapters, then I'd like to know why. Quote:
You don't even have a story with out Haruhi there, Kaisos. Quote:
She is not a secondary character. None of the core five are secondary characters, Kaisos. Any character that's on-screen as much as either one of those five are is not a secondary character. Period. Quote:
Whenever you have an anime, or a narrative, where multiple characters are onscreen more often than not, you have an ensemble cast. It's like Seinfeld - is Kramer a secondary character? Is Elaine? No, because while they're not on-screen as much as Jerry is, they're still on-screen enough that to call either of them a "secondary character" does a disservice to their importance to the plot and story. So, Haruhi is definitely not a secondary character. Now... as I wrote, I personally hold that her and Kyon are co-main characters. That's just my view, and if you disagree with it, so be it. But I'm not going to sit here, and have it be said that Haruhi is a secondary character. She is definitely a primary character, if not a main character. Quote:
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Haruhi Suzumiya, the principle mover and shaker of this story (albeit unwittingly, at times). In a way, the Haruhi franchise is a classic case of man against nature. Kyon is the man. Haruhi is the nature. That is a big part of what makes them co-main characters, imo. |
Remember folks, the anime and novels are titled on variations of the title "The melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya". Not "The excitement and angerment of Kyon because of Haruhi" :P
So...no Haruhi is NOT a secondary character. Her name is in the freaking title of the franchise for crying out loud. It's ludicrous to even think that she isn't a main character. :P Kyon might have the most lines in the show, but he's sorta fills the narrator position in the show. It's Haruhi this show is about when all is said and done. ;) |
If this series has no title, and given the existing novel and anime materials we're offered these working titles:
1. The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi 2. The Evolution of Nagato Yuki 3. The Moe of Asahina Mikuru 4. The Conspiracy of Koizumi Itsuki If it was a serious vote (and no, please don't actually do it), I would venture to guess #3 & #4 would get minimals, while #1 and #2 the votes would split right down the middle. Even though its extreme introvert vs extrovert, yin vs yan, apple vs orange, screen time vs title character, Tanigawa would maintain equal weights for the two girls in Kyon's mind, so that that balance would become intense but untipped in favor of neither all the way towards the series' climax. It's interesting how one shipper is able to pick out the dynamic intricacies of his favorite character with Kyon while missing what another shipper sees (I for one am being delightfully educated by this board of the subtleties between Kyon & Haruhi, being a Yuki(wor)shipper myself). In short, I don't think one girl is more important to the story than the other, because the story will be far more interesting if they're equally important (in different ways) all the way till the end. As for the series' title, I would vote for my write-in: The Ramblings of Kyon |
Maybe Tanigawa will do a to-LOVE-ru cop out. =="
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And the story truly does tend to revolve around Haruhi, and the hilarious and/or precarious situations that she wittingly or unwittingly unleashes upon Kyon and the other SOS Brigade members... and in some cases, the world. I understand and accept that the titular character isn't always the most featured character in the story (Shakespeare's Julius Caesar is a classic example of this), but the titular character should at least be the one that has the most to do with the circumstances and plot of the narrative... which Julius Caesar was in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar; everything ultimately revolved around Caesar, one way or another. Kyon is to Haruhi what Brutus is to Caesar (not that I expect Kyon to betray Haruhi, mind you... "Et tu, Kyon?" :heh: ). We could perhaps argue that, by extension, Nagato is to Haruhi what Marc Anthony (the ancient Roman, not the singer ;) ) is to Caesar... i.e. in the 2nd half of the Julius Ceasar play, Marc Anthony becomes more central than Caesar himself in some ways. Koizumi fits nicely as Cassius to continue my analogy here... ;) |
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Yeah, I'm going to retract all my earlier statements rather than defending them.
I'm sick and tired of dealing with anything right now after having to try to get a computer to work for about four hours straight. |
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Last chapter of to-LOVE-ru: The dude basically messes up a confession and ends up getting all the girls. |
The Megas Laughter of Tsuruya-san
The Idiocy of the Two Idiots |
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Not only is he the main character, but he's also at least a secondary personal focus to all the other characters. Yes, Haruhi's powers are a driving force for the overarcing plot, and the impetus for the three groups being in the positions they are in, but none of the characters (except Kyon and arguably Itsuki) are personally focused on her. But on Kyon? Haruhi is twelve kinds of tsundere for him, Itsuki goes out of his way to harass and annoy him at every turn, Mikuru has him as her primary confidant (except when she needs something actually done, of course...), Yuki has already sent her one reason for creation off the rails for his sake, Tsuruya has been flirting with him since their first encounter and after Volume 7 is at least a guaranteed future co-conspirator, and the idiot twins wouldn't even be in the story if it weren't for their friendship with him. |
The simple fact that Haruhi has to be kept out of the loop 24/7 means that... if she's a main character, she's not... well, I don't think she's a main character. I agree with Kaisos here; the only main character is Kyon. Sure, she's a primary plot mover and instigator, but there's absolutely zero way to explore her... well, let's not say personality... character? Characterisation? ...to the same degree as everybody else.
You know, I really want to see a MoSZ story entirely from Haruhi's viewpoint. Because it would normal as hell. And I find that kind of amusing. Someday in the Rain was close, but still ultimately from Kyon's POV. /edit In a single narrator-character based show, almost always the narrator-character is going to be the only main character, simply because of the unreliable narrator position. |
In the interests of spirited discussion, I'm going to put together an argument for why I disagree with the view that Kyon is the only main character of this anime.
I hold that Kyon and Haruhi share the main character role in this anime and novel franchise. And here's why... Which character does the narrator focus on the most? Which character dominates most of the character assessment narration? Which character is the narrator most likely to bring up, even if only as a point of comparison, even when that character is not on-screen? Which character holds the narrator's focus to the greatest degree? The answer, I think, is fairly clear... the answer is Haruhi Suzumiya. Kyon, in spite of being both narrator and a character in the story, tends to not have a great lot to narrate about himself, aside from when he's comparing and/or contrasting his viewpoints with the stated viewpoints of the other characters. He'll sometimes have a couple of lines of praise for Mikuru, a couple observations about Nagato, or reflect with some annoyance on Itsuki. But, and this is especially true in the novel, there are huge, lengthy multi-paragraph sections where Kyon narration goes on and on and on about Haruhi. It's more likely to cast her in a negative light than in a positive light, but it is nonetheless focusing on her. This is even true at least as late as Novel 7, one of the ones which Kaisos argued sees Haruhi's prominence drop. Well, judging by how much time Kyon spends narrating over Haruhi at the beginning of the Novel 7 Prologue... In some ways, Kyon as narrator actually heightens Haruhi's prominence in the story. A 3rd-Person narrator likely wouldn't focus on Haruhi that much, due to the lack of the personal attachment. And, even though I'm not a KyonHaruhi shipper, I'll admit the following... in Novel 4, Kyon focuses more on Haruhi than on any other SOS Brigade member. He shows a desire to reunite with all three of the SOS Brigade girls, but Haruhi consumes his focus the most. And given that this happens in a story where Haruhi has very little "screen time" and where the drivers of this story are Kyon and Nagato... I maintain that Kyon and Haruhi are both main characters in this story. I maintain that they share the role. |
I'm still thinking that single narrator-based narratives simply lend themselves well to only having a single main character because we are literally running around in that person's skull. Therefore, any character focus of the narrator isn't so much the main character of the story as the primary person of importance from that narrator's POV.
That said, if Haruhi is a main character, then she plays the role of the antagonist. She is the person who must be kept in the dark, defeated or satisfied, the creator of all the problems that the protagonist faces; the 'opposition', intentional or not, the protagonist. On a sliding scale, then... Kyon > Haruhi > Yuki/Nagato/Koizumi > Tsuruya/Asakura > Everybody Else I think we have differing definitions of "Main Character"; this is probably because I believe you can only have one 'Main character', a smaller group of 'primary characters', 'secondary characters', and then 'extras'. For example, in Lucky Star, the Main Character is Konata, but the Primary Characters are Miyuki, Kagami and Tsukasa. In Evangelion, the Main Character is Shinji, but the Primary Characters are Rei, Asuka, and Misato. In Gurren-Lagann, the main character is Simon, the other but Primary Characters are Kamina and Yoko. |
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Over time, Kyon starts to loosen up a bit and gradually becomes more honest with himself about how he genuinely enjoys most of the SOS Brigade activities. In this vein, he becomes more like the very honest Haruhi who loves SOS Brigade activities, and who has a real unrestrained zest for life. Over time, Haruhi starts to become more empathic to the concerns of others, and somewhat more responsive to the suggestions of others. In this vein, she becomes more like the careful and thoughtful Kyon who tends to want to give almost everything a second thought. So, I tend to see Kyon and Haruhi sharing the center of the narrative, the rest of the SOS Brigade immediately surrounding them (with Nagato being perhaps a bit more prominent than Itsuki and Mikuru), and the the other characters surrounding the SOS Brigade. Quote:
This is not always the case, though. A fair number of stories surround the concept of duos (cop pairings, for example, were a popular staple of cinema for awhile). Who's the main character in Men in Black for example: Will Smith's character or Tommy Lee Jone's character? It's so close that I think it's best to call them co-main characters. |
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Will Smith's character.
Al is a Primary character. The Main character trumps all the other characters. |
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Who's the main character in the Superman/Batman comic? |
Will Smith's character? :D
I admit my theory fails when we get into things that are deliberately engineered as Duo creations... /edit I chose Will Smith because we're generally supposed to empathise with Jay because he's the rookie; he's the one the story follows from the start to the end. MIB 2 might be different; I think that focuses more on Kay. |
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Like the Blues Brothers. They fail my litmus test as well.
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Haruhi and Kyon, however, are really not designed that way... Kyon spends relatively little time in most of the stories (again, especially Vol. 7, you need to finish it before you make comments about it, Triple_R) by Haruhi's side, although he's with her most of the time OUT of the narrative's scope. By that I mean that he sits in front of her in class and generally does whatever she says. I believe the character Kyon actually interacts most with might be Koizumi, like I suggested earlier. Koizumi is practically his confidante, precisely because he HAS no one else. (I'm sure he'd talk to Haruhi if what he was talking about didn't involve her, but...) And wait, Triple_R, you're into Vol 7 already? Skip Melancholy of Mikuru until after the Prologue? |
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Basically, even if we don't take her powers into account, Haruhi's stature is raised simply through being SOS Brigade Chief, and by her overt eccentricity. This causes her to be a point of focus for all of the characters of this anime and novel franchise. Apart from Haruhi, only Kyon enjoys such a "point of focus" stature, albeit for different reasons... reasons that directly relate back to Haruhi, usually. Quote:
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I also really think the series is more about Kyon, as a direct consequence of his position as narrator, than anyone else. It's like the exact opposite of The Great Gatsby. |
To modify my theory, maybe it's more that there can only be one Main Character at any given point in a story, and characters are moved in and out of the position as is narratively convenient? Acc. Kaisos (i haven't watched FMA the anime) in order for Al to be the main character role, Ed had to not be the main character. So perhaps it's more of a roving spotlight than a permenant feature, if you get my drift.
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Ah, but then they don't become the Main Character, they just occupy the position for a given amount of time. It's like, if a group continually switches who the person in the position of leader is, you don't get lots of leaders; you get a leader and a bunch of ex-leaders, and they just keep swapping around.
It's all Semantics anyway, because Haruhi always has Kyon as the viewpoint character. |
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Novel 1 - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Kyon. Novel 2 - The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Haruhi. This is where she is most of a catalyst, both directly and indirectly. This may also be the novel where Kyon's narration focuses on Haruhi the most. Novel 4 - The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is perhaps Nagato (she is the cause of the major disturbance in this novel, after all). Snow Mountain Syndrome and Where Did the Cat go - You could actually argue that Koizumi is the main character in these two. Because he's the one that sets up the New Year's Eve trip, and basically provides running commentary on it. He really is almost like a game-show host, lol. And, from what I understand, Mikuru does get a focus put on her in the later novels as well. As an aside, your theory definitely applies to Star Trek, where it was common to have many episodes focusing on one or two particular crew members. |
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In my own honest opinion, there isn't any definate main character. Kyon is basically a cameraman that won't shut up, though we all love him for that. Haruhi is more or less an actual main character that gets bored sometimes and wanders off the set. Since she doesn't have the spotlight for a long enough time, she can't be called "the" main character. Nagato is a classic silent (or stoic) side character, following in the footsteps of Rei Ayanami in this role. Mikuru I could care less about, but honestly she is a typical "moe" side character (I say she's more of a femme fatale than anything else). Koizumi gives me the creeps. Tsuruya is pretty much another show's main character that is getting a cameo. And that pretty much covers everyone with enough screen time to make a case for. None of them are true main characters, the last four especially. Of course, this is Haruhi we're talking about. Tanigawa isn't exactly known for playing his tropes straight down the line like everybody else. |
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I don't think Disappearance was about Nagato.
It was about Kyon and his epic adventure to get back to his real dimension, with the help of his (now altered) friends. I don't think Nagato was what the story was about. Granted, she was probably the second main character in this story, but since It focused on Kyon, I'll say It's about Kyon. |
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I'd say she's more of a fan character based largely on Haruhi, but that's just me. What does this have to do with speculation, anyway? :heh:
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You know, I think I finally understand your Haruhi argument, although I still disagree. See, she's no Batman. Quote:
This is what I was getting at with the characters' personal (read "emotional") foci. The SOS-dan members didn't show up because of Haruhi's supposed magnetic personality. They were there due to her powers. Now, that's still the primary reason they are there, but the only major additional reason (except for Itsuki, who may or may not have a thing for Haruhi) is Kyon. Yuki (and again, maybe Itsuki—can't really tell) definitely has personal feelings for him, and he's Mikuru's all-important personal cheat code/plot coupon (finish Volume 7 already, Trip). And in later books he especially becomes a focus for some new characters, which will probably help you to understand my seeing "Mary-Sue-like" qualities in him. |
Recently finished the Prologue for Novel 7. Was debating if it was worth reviewing on its own. After discussing it over with another AS regular here that's read through all the novels, I decided that it probably was (like that person said, the Prologue is about the length of a chapter, anyway). So, some brief points. Spoiler space to save space...
Spoiler for Novel 7 Prologue:
Well, that's all for this one. Hope people took something form my review at least. Quote:
If you're serious here, you underestimate Superman's importance as a character. Quote:
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So... it's not surprising at all to me that both you and Kaisos hold a low view of Haruhi's quality and value as a character, apart from her God-like powers, imo. There's no question that Haruhi was guilty of some awful behavior pre-Disappearance, but she comes across pretty well post-Disappearance. Honestly, she's a bit of a caring sweetheart post-Disappearance. If a character moves past earlier transgressions, I tend to forgive him or her for it, unless it's something hugely bad. Quote:
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