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-   -   [MANGA] Itachi - Hero or Villain? (poll) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=85364)

james0246 2009-08-19 20:22

[MANGA] Itachi - Hero or Villain? (poll)
 
From Shay:

Basically, was Itachi a hero or a villain?

Or was he like Darth Vader (or something in-between)?

I would like hear what people actually think; I mean whatever has transpired, overall the guy has exhibited traits from both sides of the spectrum.

Let us debate!

That Other Ninja 2009-08-19 20:31

Tragic hero, not unlike Heracles.

Shay 2009-08-19 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja (Post 2592212)
Tragic hero, not unlike Heracles.

With respect, I am no expert on Heracles however, I know enough to completely and absolutely disagree!

Heracles was like the hero! He was like the hero of heros! I do not believe his integrity was ever jeopardised?

Itachi on the otherhand, abused his powers for purposes other than good many a time!

In my opinion, Itachi was no hero! I'm not saying he was evil but the guy obviously had some issues!

If Itachi was such a hero his clan would still be alive and Sasuke wouldn't be so fucked up!

That Other Ninja 2009-08-19 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shay (Post 2592283)
With respect, I am no expert on Heracles however, I know enough to completely and absolutely disagree!

Heracles was an absolute hero! He was like the hero of heros! I do not believe his integrity was ever jeopardised?

Itachi, on the other hand abused his powers for purposes for other than good many a time!

In my opinion, Itachi was no hero! I'm not saying he was evil but the guy obviously had some issues!

If Itachi was such a hero his clan would still be alive and Sasuke wouldn't be so fucked up!

Uh he killed his own wife and child. He performed the twelve labors as a form of repentance for the tragedy. Not to mention the number of other people he accidentally kills, some just because he can't control his monstrous strength like if Superman let out a sneeze.

And uh.. are you up to date in the manga? Everything Itachi did, he did for Konoha. Which is why I call him a tragic hero - because although he committed some unspeakable acts, he did so out of necessity in his own mind and for a greater good.

Shay 2009-08-19 21:55

!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja (Post 2592318)
Uh he killed his own wife and child. He performed the twelve labors as a form of repentance for the tragedy. Not to mention the number of other people he accidentally kills, some just because he can't control his monstrous strength like if Superman let out a sneeze.

And uh.. are you up to date in the manga? Everything Itachi did, he did for Konoha. Which is why I call him a tragic hero - because although he committed some unspeakable acts, he did so out of necessity in his own mind and for a greater good.

lol well I consider myself offically schooled on Heracles! In my defence though I did admit I was no expert. As far as I knew he was like the untouchable hero... (Note to self. Research!)

Anyway, yes I am upto date and that is why I have made this thread! I believe Itachi had other options, and I also believe he got a kick out of his strength! He made Kakashi suffer for no reason at all!

CMSensei 2009-08-19 21:57

I agree with The Other Ninja. Itachi is a tragic hero for sure

Shay 2009-08-19 22:03

Ok. I will admit I am a little confused.

Itachi wiped out his entire clan bar Sasuke, for the sake of Konoha and that makes him a hero? Can no one here think of an alternative? Or even a more fitting heroic comprimise?

itachi29al 2009-08-19 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shay (Post 2592350)
lol well I consider myself offically schooled on Heracles! In my defence though I did admit I was no expert. As far as I knew he was like the untouchable hero... (Note to self. Research!)

Anyway, yes I am upto date and that is why I have made this thread! I believe Itachi had other options, and I also believe he got a kick out of his strength! He made Kakashi suffer for no reason at all!

Well he needed to make a point, he wanted to let Danzou that he was alive and still very much dangerous, what better way then to absolutely crush one of the villages most skilled ninjas.
Oh and not to be an arrogant jerk, but Hercules was by no means a tragic hero. A tragic hero meets a tragic end due to there somewhat admirable flaws, at the end of Heracles life he became a god, not to shabby. Sure he had hurdles but hey in the end all was good. Itachi is a much better example of a tragic hero.

CMSensei 2009-08-19 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shay (Post 2592367)
Ok. I will admit I am a little confused.

Itachi wiped out his entire clan bar Sasuke, for the sake of Konoha and that makes him a hero? Can no one here think of an alternative? Or even a more fitting heroic comprimise?

He did the wrong but doing that he did right?

That Other Ninja 2009-08-19 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi29al (Post 2592373)
Well he needed to make a point, he wanted to let Danzou that he was alive and still very much dangerous, what better way then to absolutely crush one of the villages most skilled ninjas.
Oh and not to be an arrogant jerk, but Hercules was by no means a tragic hero. A tragic hero meets a tragic end due to there somewhat admirable flaws, at the end of Heracles life he became a god, not to shabby. Sure he had hurdles but hey in the end all was good. Itachi is a much better example of a tragic hero.

Professors would disagree with you. He's probably the most classic tragic hero if you think about it and he does meet a tragic end in which he commits suicide. Its because he's a tragic hero that Zeus allowed him to join the gods.

Shay 2009-08-19 23:05

Let's not let this thread slide into some sort of greek myth escapade, please.

Let's look at this logically. Whether he liked it or not, Itachi has basically lived an almost complete life of crime. Does his final goal (even though he just bowed out and left it all up to lil bro to clean up) out weight his attrocaties in life?

He was "forced" to do something he didn't like. He continued forward with an evul crew. He over punished supposedly true allies, screwed with his lil bros head, making him crazy hating the best pal and world, then fucking dies saying all along he was a good guy???

Could you see Naruto doing that? Kakashi? Gai? Lee? ANYONE????

Let me remind you I am drunk right now and consequently I am probabl not getting my point across as well as I would like.

I think Kishi pulled a fast one on us allowing Itachi to go down without retribution for his acts. I'm not saying he was all out evil but I am saying he was no Sarutobi, or Yondaime*

Gin 2009-08-19 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja (Post 2592431)
Professors would disagree with you. He's probably the most classic tragic hero if you think about it and he does meet a tragic end in which he commits suicide. Its because he's a tragic hero that Zeus allowed him to join the gods.

I'd say Oedipus has the most tragic story, but I don't know if he counts as a hero.

That Other Ninja 2009-08-20 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gin (Post 2592501)
I'd say Oedipus has the most tragic story, but I don't know if he counts as a hero.

He does and is. What I mean is that Heracles is the prime classic example of it as his legend is older and more well known. Whether he's the better example or not is arguable.

As for Itachi, his was a life of sacrifice. Willing to take the blame and sully his reputation while staining his own hands in cold murder, yes. He did so to make a clean slate of his accursed clan's history and intentions by putting a stop to them. All the while he dogged Sasuke into becoming stronger and hold up a belief that the clan was one of honor. He destroyed his clan to prevent war and perhaps to rebuild it on new foundations; those of dignity and peace.

He isn't a tragic hero because he wanted to be, not by choice anyway until it was the only path laid out for him. And being a "tragic hero" is not synonymous with an everyman's hero. It exemplifies the tragic and fatal flaw one possesses or experiences when achieving something profoundly heroic, which isn't to say he did no wrong because he did. But no one can say a wrong can not make a right.

That was Itachi. In my mind at least.

And it makes Sasuke look all the more despicable for it.

james0246 2009-08-20 00:29

^Itachi really doesn't fit the classical definition of a tragic hero. His downfall, while technically brought about by his own plans, was not really brought about by an error in his actions. Itachi choose the method of his death, rather than making a mistake that eventually leads to a personal epiphany and concludes with his or her fall. If anything, Sasuke is more of a tragic hero than Itachi (catharsis is pivotal to tragedy, and Itachi never had a cathartic moment, but Sasuke has had such a moment, and probably will have similar moments later).

Personally, I like to label Itachi as an Anti-Villain. He certainly had a just and noble cause (preservation of Konoha, and protection of his younger brother), but his methods for achieving his cause leave little to be desired.

That Other Ninja 2009-08-20 00:47

Well if you take into account the qualifying traits, i'd say he is more than he isn't. And while he was in more control of his own destiny than one brought about by error, he did foresee his own end resulting from his own actions. Or conversely you could claim that his error was Sasuke, and regardless of whether he wanted to or simply couldn't resist not wanting to kill his brother where he was supposed to, he made what Madara called the mistake of letting him live and used it towards his end. And not all tragic heroes must meet an end of death/complete ruin/a fate worse than both to be considered one. Itachi got what he wished for and died smiling even if Sasuke bastardizes his hopes and wishes. We should probably also take into account that this is an eastern work of fiction and applying these western ideas to them is not always admissible. :rolleyes: But I suppose, while catharsis usually is and can be a pivotal point in the life of a tragic hero, it not need be inclusive to define the label, for me anyway. I think great sacrifice, intentional or not, is more pivotal.

As for Sasuke being a tragic hero... are you claiming your foresee his death? :p

And I see Hunter lurking, HERE IT COMES! :heh:

Hunter 2009-08-20 00:55

I have two different views on Itachi.
The one I think Kishimoto wanted to come across : a good man put into an impossible situation who did something wrong, monstruous even, but absolutely necessary.
And the one I feel Kishimoto ended up with : a man who obviously cracked under pressure and went batshit insane.

Without even going into the whole political powerplay which doesn't make much sense at the end of the day because Itachi required the help of the guy he thought was actually responsible for the entire mess they were in (but kept his existence a secret!), the fact is that his handle of Sasuke was unbelievably stupid without mentioning uneccessary cruel and worse of all counter-productive to the highest degree. For all intent and purpose Itachi is the most responsible for turning Sasuke into the kind of man he is now.

Im_A_MoP 2009-08-20 04:08

Its obvious
 
Im sorry, but I don't really understand how Itachi being a hero is in question. Itachi is obviously a hero, at least in regards to konoha. He may have singlehandedly saved konoha from a civil war that may have thrown the balance of power to a point where the uchihas would have taken over or konoha would be so weakened from the internal conflict, that it would be easy for an opposing village to take over. He was following orders, and was loyal to the village until he died. The onlyy selfish thing that Itachi had done was leave sasuke alive, nd even that was a noble gesture. I think that itachi is the epitome of a tragic hero... o yea nd the only crimes he ever committed was kidnapping jinchuriki which he had to do in order to maintain his position as a spy in the akatsuki. But I guess that really wasn't a crime because he did that under orders as well.

King Lycan 2009-08-20 04:10

Anti Hero something like Sesshomaru :p

Haak 2009-08-20 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter (Post 2592601)
Without even going into the whole political powerplay which doesn't make much sense at the end of the day because Itachi required the help of the guy he thought was actually responsible for the entire mess they were in (but kept his existence a secret!), the fact is that his handle of Sasuke was unbelievably stupid without mentioning uneccessary cruel and worse of all counter-productive to the highest degree. For all intent and purpose Itachi is the most responsible for turning Sasuke into the kind of man he is now.

Yeah i know! Seriously i wasthinking. Why would a pacifist believe that revenge and hatred would be what's best for his little brother?

lonewolf777 2009-08-20 11:52

I voted for anti-villain. I can't say he's a hero, due in part to his criminal actions in the past, but also because he really wasn't much of a hero, except perhaps to Sasuke. Additionally, his actions at the end of his life display the quintessential anti-villain traits: he died to foil the plans of a villain, as opposed to explicitly save the lives of a great many. While that may be said to be a result of his action, it was not the direct result thereof, and as such, I think it is more appropriate to classify him as an anti-villain than a hero.

On another note, nobody as of yet seems to have considered him a villain at the very least XD


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