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-   -   ACTA : Why it should not pass (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=97859)

TigerII 2010-09-28 16:12

ACTA : Why it should not pass
 
I'm sure everyone knows about ACTA, the secretive multi-nation agreement that will affect the internet in a major way(From what I read, it would mean that the federal government and corporations of whatever nation signed the act could get personal information from ISPs without a warrant.

Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement

Since Japan is supposed to be a signatory, I feel that means it will be easier to shut down translation groups and such even easier.


The second bill is an American bill that is even more frighting.


Combating online Infringement and Counterfeits Act

http://www.techeye.net/internet/comb...-rights-groups

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-..._b_739836.html

This act would allow the US government to create two blacklists. The first list is an instant removal if an American domain, and a blocking for all American users if it has a domain from another nation. The user would see a 404 error page. These sites would be allowed to have judicial review, but it would be a long drawn out process.

The second list is the Department of Justice list, which doesn't mean automatic removal/blockage, but a strong recommendation to do so. These sites would have no judicial review.

The Act also allows ISPs to block sites on the second list, even if the federal government hasn't, at their own discretion.

Any site can be blocked/removed, including this one, for Americans anyways.

Any Americans on here have any thought on this? These bills could potentially stop people from all over the world from watching even unlicensed material, but the American act could really hurt the American anime fanbase. That law is China or Iranian esque censorship.

[MOD EDIT] Link to the start of the current discussion [/MOD EDIT]

Kaijo 2010-09-28 16:17

Not so much fans, as it impacts everyone else. It'll be great to put your political opponents on the blacklist to shut down their message, or anyone else you disagree with.

But yeah, when you talk to regular folks, stress the question: "Why is the US so interested in pushing China and Iran level censorship on the rest of the world? Why are they trying to sneak this legislation in through the back door via a treaty instead of the normal process?"

Equating it with China and Iran is a good move.

But ultimately, it won't affect the hardcore fans so much as the casual ones. There will always be ways to encrypt and distribute anime/manga material to those who want it. The casual ones will have a tougher time finding it, but as long as they have one hardcore techy friend, they'll get it. Even if we have to reduce ourselves to invitation-only sneaker nets, SSH tunnels, and sneakernets.

Tsuyoshi 2010-09-28 16:57

I've always been against internet regulation because it is now the only tool through which people can fulfill their right of knowledge. It is the largest, most efficient and cheapest source of information that allows people to freely communicate and exchange knowledge. Censoring it and controlling it would be stripping people of a basic human right. And I find it even more disgusting that the US would try to enforce its brand of censorship on the rest of the world, and I fail to find the correct words to express my fury at how the US is even trying to obtain methods by which to get personal information through ISP's without warning. That's downright breach of people's privacy. It's getting to a point where people have to be afraid of what they say on the internet because they may get into serious trouble for it. It's ironic that this is happening in the US, the very country that advocates democracy and freedom of speech. Despicable. Absolutely dusgsting.

Hooves 2010-09-28 17:01

For once... I support Obama with his vow to preserve open Internet. Of course I don't know if he will back this up forever, but I'm going to support him for now. Even Federal Communications Commission Chairman Julius Genachowski agrees with him :heh:

I think this is a little troublesome to block all sites outside of the U.S.. :eyebrow:

Tsuyoshi 2010-09-28 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves (Post 3270109)
For once... I support Obama with his vow to preserve open Internet. Of course I don't know if he will back this up forever, but I'm going to support him for now. Even Federal Communications Commission Chairman Julius Genachowski agrees with him :heh:

I think this is a little major to block all sites outside of the U.S.. :eyebrow:

As hard as he may try to back it up, I have doubts that he will succeed because I have the feeling he's not the one in control of what goes on with the internet (or various other things for that matter).

Vexx 2010-09-28 17:06

Anime will be the least of our concerns as global citizens if the ACTA is passed, this thing is so full of corporatist evil (assuming that even half of what the leaks about this highly secretive document contain are true). It simply does not serve the interests of the general public or even of the creative artists - its a stranglehold by the middlemen that criminalizes and provides no recourse.

Tsuyoshi, the "US" is being used as a tool by these multi-national corporations (e.g. Sony, Disney, the consortiums behind the MPAA/RIAA) to force the world's consumers into little revenue-extracting buckets and protect by force existing business models. Australia and the EU government are being likewise manipulated (amongst others). So target your wrath precisely :)

Hooves 2010-09-28 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi (Post 3270110)
As hard as he may try to back it up, I have doubts that he will succeed because I have the feeling he's not the one in control of what goes on with the internet (or various other things for that matter).

Even if he does not have control of what goes on with the internet. He still has something that can somehow prevent this from going into effect.

Quote:

Online rights groups are sharpening their battle weapons after proposals by a US lawmaker for a take down legislation that could globally effect the web.

Read more: http://www.techeye.net/internet/comb...#ixzz10rfIlfgk
I'm going to enjoy this when it happens :heh:

But still... Whats the point in doing this now? All this stuff has been happening for however long, and it has not become a major problem to the U.S in a major way. Or do they want to just piss us off?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 3270113)
Anime will be the least of our concerns as global citizens if the ACTA is passed, this thing is so full of corporatist evil (assuming that even half of what the leaks about this highly secretive document contain are true). It simply does not serve the interests of the general public or even of the creative artists - its a stranglehold by the middlemen that criminalizes and provides no recourse.

I love the point you made Vexx :)

Nosauz 2010-09-28 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 3270113)
Anime will be the least of our concerns as global citizens if the ACTA is passed, this thing is so full of corporatist evil (assuming that even half of what the leaks about this highly secretive document contain are true). It simply does not serve the interests of the general public or even of the creative artists - its a stranglehold by the middlemen that criminalizes and provides no recourse.

It's to restrict the only "free market" that we have. The internet has been the great equalizer as it has shown itself to be. How could single purveyors ever compete with big box retailers? The internet shows the true power of Laissez faire economics in it's most infant state. Of course we can see the downside to it, but it truly has equalized the monetary system and has helped change commerce as we know it, of course corporations are desperate to control this platform like any other platform. Especially when it has a possibility of complete destroying the status quo, also anything that gives power to the consumer is something that will be fought tooth and nail by the conglomerates.

Tsuyoshi 2010-09-28 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves (Post 3270118)
Even if he does not have control of what goes on with the internet. He still has something that can somehow prevent this from going into effect.

And what would that be? The presidency has been a tool of economics and large corporations since the second world war, if not before that. Why are governments and business institutions working so hard to control the people and their liberty, the flow of information? Conspiracy theorists like me can come up with millions of reasons why they would, and since I have a theory of my own, I strongly believe that the president has no control over this. The last time a US president sought to give the people the freedom they deserved after protecting them from a nuclear apocalypse, he got shot in a public procession. Tells you how much control they really have.

Kaze 2010-09-28 17:21

careful you guys, we might all get arrested if the bill gets passed!
In the case if they are coming on to you, everybody party at my house!

It's a safe zone :cool:

Tsuyoshi 2010-09-28 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaze (Post 3270144)
careful you guys, we might all get arrested if the bill gets passed!
In the case if they are coming on to you, everybody party at my house!

It's a safe zone :cool:

I can vouch for that :heh: But yeah, that's a good point. If the bill gets passed and people get personal info, digging up things people said, even in the distant past, would have serious repercussions. It's exactly like Geroge Orwell's 1984. Sometimes I wonder if he had the power to see the future.....

Hooves 2010-09-28 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi (Post 3270129)
And what would that be? The presidency has been a tool of economics and large corporations since the second world war, if not before that. Why are governments and business institutions working so hard to control the people and their liberty, the flow of information? Conspiracy theorists like me can come up with millions of reasons why they would, and since I have a theory of my own, I strongly believe that the president has no control over this. The last time a US president sought to give the people the freedom they deserved after protecting them from a nuclear apocalypse, he got shot in a public procession. Tells you how much control they really have.

He can atleast rile up people who are not already getting ready if this bill ever gets passed. But still, this bill has not been passed yet. So there could be anything that could convince a veto on this bill. But so far, Obama has shown that he does not have what it takes to keep this up for long. So we may be at a big disappointment at anytime. He wouldnt risk himself getting into another assassination attempt just to keep "open internet" thats just judging from my knowledge of him.

Quote:

careful you guys, we might all get arrested if the bill gets passed!
I would like to see them try to get me with my many, many hiding places :heh: Unless they tear my entire house down.

TigerII 2010-09-28 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 3270113)
Anime will be the least of our concerns as global citizens if the ACTA is passed, this thing is so full of corporatist evil (assuming that even half of what the leaks about this highly secretive document contain are true). It simply does not serve the interests of the general public or even of the creative artists - its a stranglehold by the middlemen that criminalizes and provides no recourse.

Tsuyoshi, the "US" is being used as a tool by these multi-national corporations (e.g. Sony, Disney, the consortiums behind the MPAA/RIAA) to force the world's consumers into little revenue-extracting buckets and protect by force existing business models. Australia and the EU government are being likewise manipulated (amongst others). So target your wrath precisely :)

Yes I know it will affect more than anime, but I assumed that is what people would care about on here. Honestly though, short of revolutions, there isn't much anyone can do. The Western world is controlled by corporations. Politicians get kickbacks and payments from them to pass legislation that favours politicians. Governments simply don't care about the rights of its citizens.

I had always assumed that the casual anime fan(Such as myself) would eventually be forced out of the unlicensed shows. I knew that torrent sites, translation groups, etc. would eventually be shut down. I know hardcore fans will be able to get passed, but I am not tech saavy enough to know how to do such things. I mean, stuff like IRC confuses the hell out of me. Every time I've ever tried to use it, I get banned, lol.

Even for the fans in the know, they can be slowed. If list sites such as andb or baka manga are taken down, you might not even know what you want to watch/read or how to even find a group translating it.


Luckily for me, I have actually been losing interest in most new shows/manga and am actually only following a few older ones until they finish. I guess then it is time to find a new hobby.

Xacual 2010-09-28 18:36

It's really too bad that a lot of corporations and other things are trying to control and restrict instead of embracing and using what the internet provides for them. Digital Distribution is already taking off for a lot of video game companies. Honestly I can't remember the quote or where I saw it recently but it was something like you can't walk backwards into the future. I'm probably off on it but that describes my feelings on the subject.

Vexx 2010-09-28 21:05

In a very personal sense and factually speaking, before I found fansubs my expenditures on anime and manga were basically ZERO dollars - I simply was not interested.

After some encouragement from a web comic artist, I tried a few recommended series via fansubs ... now I watch fansubs regularly and spend $1000-$2000 a year on average on manga/anime/figures/etc.

Take away my ability to preview/watch broadcast tv shows (just like japanese viewers get to do) and my expenditures will go back down to just about zero because I (bluntly) "don't buy shit without being able to check it out".
And no, streaming really doesn't do the trick (though I know how to capture it) for me, streaming doesn't really work like it does "on tv" ... it flakes, stutters, and pauses even on really good connections with really good computers.

So.. that's the direct impact on me and, ergo, the direct impact on the anime/jpop industry. ACTA will have unintended impacts on those who wave its banner.

TigerII 2010-09-28 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 3270477)
In a very personal sense and factually speaking, before I found fansubs my expenditures on anime and manga were basically ZERO dollars - I simply was not interested.

After some encouragement from a web comic artist, I tried a few recommended series via fansubs ... now I watch fansubs regularly and spend $1000-$2000 a year on average on manga/anime/figures/etc.

Take away my ability to preview/watch broadcast tv shows (just like japanese viewers get to do) and my expenditures will go back down to just about zero because I (bluntly) "don't buy shit without being able to check it out".
And no, streaming really doesn't do the trick (though I know how to capture it) for me, streaming doesn't really work like it does "on tv" ... it flakes, stutters, and pauses even on really good connections with really good computers.

So.. that's the direct impact on me and, ergo, the direct impact on the anime/jpop industry. ACTA will have unintended impacts on those who wave its banner.


Don't think companies care. They seem to be very short sighted. RAWR PEOPLE NOT PAY US RAWR.

ChainLegacy 2010-09-28 21:25

Same thing for me... The only intake the anime industry would have from my household would be all the Dragonball tapes I bought back in the 90's-early 00's if it weren't for fansubs. Not that I'm a rabid consumer, but I never would have bought any DVD boxsets without fansubs.

Highman 2010-09-28 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xacual (Post 3270261)
It's really too bad that a lot of corporations and other things are trying to control and restrict instead of embracing and using what the internet provides for them. Digital Distribution is already taking off for a lot of video game companies. Honestly I can't remember the quote or where I saw it recently but it was something like you can't walk backwards into the future. I'm probably off on it but that describes my feelings on the subject.

The fact is all they care about is money and profit. In a couple years they maybe going down the drain until they focus broadening the work more. Pirates have won the war but I'm praying that Congress won't sign nor thrown away this is stupid bill to sign.

Vexx 2010-09-28 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highman (Post 3270507)
The fact is all they care about is money and profit. In a couple years they maybe going down the drain until they focus broadening the work more. Pirates have won the war but I'm praying that Congress won't sign nor thrown away this is stupid bill to sign.

Actually, if they really cared about money and profit they'd be looking forward. What they are really doing is stubbornly sitting on existing unsupportable business models and trying to set those models in stone. Change is scary... for them. Whale oil lamp industry -> meet electric power.

The more they dig in ... the more troublesome it'll be when they collapse.

Hooves 2010-09-28 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 3270522)
Actually, if they really cared about money and profit they'd be looking forward. What they are really doing is stubbornly sitting on existing unsupportable business models and trying to set those models in stone. Change is scary... for them. Whale oil lamp industry -> meet electric power.

The more they dig in ... the more troublesome it'll be when they collapse.

Either way, I find this very hard to believe that this bill will ever pass... Unless they just want to make us rage, then they might as well pass the bill and get angry people all over the U.S...


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