[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

Never did Odz get an increase in strength, making him stretch does not increase his strength.

Let's look at round 2 of strawhats vs Oz... one thing you notice that they were gaining groung and they were slowly but surely beating him... However, when Moria joined the fight and started making Oz Stretch the fight pulled a 180 and the strawhats were on the run... Stretching does make a difference in a fight, it adds a lot of extra power, speed and distance to an attack, and it was the factor that caused the strawhats to loose agianst the combined might of Moria and Oz. Hell why do you think Luffy stretches? because he feels like it? no, he does it because it adds more to he his attacks

Sigh, my point is Luffy got Croc's weakness and Luffy STILL...STILL got his *** kicked. You know why? Crocodile is a Shichibukai he can overcome such circumstances and he did. Luffy HAD HELP he had plot and THREE chances against Croc and should have died if it weren't for Nico Robin's help. Do you see where I am going here? Unlike weak *** Moria who got pwned in a couple of panels.

Not sure if you were paying attention but Plot saved Luffy from Moria aswell... Moria had a perfect chance to Kill Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro, but thanks to plot they were all sparred... and again, Moria got beaten in a few panels by something MANY times FAR stronger than what Croc had to face...

It doesn't matter if Luffy lost the first 2 times he faced croc... fact of the matter is that Luffy proved he was capable of beating croc and Luffy has been growing in power ever since... If Luffy did it once he can do it again; especially since he has grown stronger since then

Zoro is possibly talking about controlling his new sword. There was no projectile shooting out of the sword. The sword did not do that itself.

and again, similar (not same) destructive power does not speak of overall strength just their raw strength... it does not speak of skill, speed and such other factors.... oh by the way... as it turns out, One of Zoro's sword's, the one he got from Kunia is ALSO one of the 21 legendary swords just liek Ryumma's sword... so even if what you said was true it doesn't even matter as Zoro had a sword of similar level as well in addition to his crused blade which is also a really good sword...

and tell me... If the sword has no power of it's own, then why would Zoro need to train to control the sword?
And your statement does not change the fact that Zoro was surpirsed at how effective his attack was, as in, before he aquired Ryumma's sword, he never performed such an attack before... he practially said that Ryumma's sword made the difference in power.

Let's look at another Zoro quote...

Zoro after using his cursed blade to cut through a stone hammer
Zoro: So! This one cut's through Stone! The Sungdai Kitetsu Blade is Remarkably Sharp! A Good Sword that cuts whatever the weilder wishes to cut. This sword might cause problems for me.

Zoro complments the sword's sharpness (one of the factors that determine a sword's power), is surpirsed that he cut through stone with that attack (if it was all about him alone, then he should NOT be surprised by his own abilities), and believes he might have trouble controling the blade... all things that talk about the sword's power

here's another quote from right after Zoro met Ryuma
Zoro: "That katana... seems pretty STRONG."
oh my... whatever could Zoro mean by that line

really now... if legendary swords did not have power of their own, then why would Zoro want to take Ryuma's sword when he can just take any common sword and be just as strong?
Hell considering how Zoro claims he's gonna need to train in order to use the sword properly, why should he bother learning how to handle the sword when he can just get a common sword and be just as strong.

Zoro has made it loud and clear that sword's DO have a power of their own... weight, density, the type of metal, the sharpness, the quality of the worksmanship, the length and width of the blade... all these are qualities that sperate swords from one another and these are the qualities that determine the sword's strength.

I said leaders as in HEAVY HITTERS, not crappy Spandam. And the five old stars looks like they been through some battles so I would not count them out of combat.

Limiting your choices to only heavy hitters does not change that fact that one can be a leader of subordiate's that are stronger then himself... Moria happens to be an exception to the general trend since he is both a pretty heavy hitter AND capable of having minions more powerful then himself

Luffy in Gears or as Nightmare has NO ANSWER for Crocodile at all. Luffy would get wasted just like in his previous match-ups against Crocodile.

pheh... rematch agianst Croc would go down like the last fight, though instead be very onesided... Croc got beaten in the last round and he would get beaten again... and that was before Luffy grew in stength and gain abilities like gear 2 and 3. Luffy would beat Croc fairly easily now, and nightmare Luffy would send him running... if Nightmare Luffy were to attack, you could be sure that croc would start making a hasty retreat (normal Luffy is bad enough)