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Eidolon Sniper · 2008-07-01, 06:26

Spoiler for Neku:

@ Neku

@.@; wait what? Then ignore what I just said. But then again, I was talking about her position in the Archangel.
I don't know. I mean, Djibril is also a villain, and he should be more than angry/furious enough that Lacus is making such a big fool out of the EA and all the other evil Naturals with him. Why does the suspicion always fall on Dully? But then again the EA is just a bunch of one-dimensional people in Destiny, so it's an injustice on their part if they were given an instance of extreme intelligence like that. Of course, I am only kidding. Seriously, I don't get it why Dully is the only one who gets the short end of the stick in the assassination debate, where there are other people who could be credited with it as well.
Unwilling? Are you sure? Unwilling = Orb will stop their assistance at once, whatever reason that they have. It's their neutrality on the line you know.
Lacus allowed Kira to fight again, going against her stance that she doesn't want to fight anymore/ considers herself retired from the war.
Being persuaded to do so does not equally mean that Lacus would allow him to fight. She held back because she knew that it was a war wherein she didn't want to get Kira involved in again. By consenting, at least Lacus knew that she trusts Kira enough to handle the battle for them in the orphanage, and she was prepared to undergo that same test again, and this was shown when she went with the Archangel; she didn't need to be persuaded to do something against her will. Lacus could easily just hand over the keys to Kira. She was at a personal turmoil because she sincerely wanted to have peace or still not get themselves involved in the war, that was why it was hard for her. Persuasion in this context would mean that Lacus' heart really isn't in at what Kira was fighting for when they were saved in the orphanage, she could've easily distracted Kira because her heart wasn't in it, and they could've gotten all themselves killed. Asking consent from Lacus showed in how Lacus reacted during the entire scene when Freedom defeated those "ZAFT" MS. Kira must know how hard it is for Lacus to accept that he will have to fight again, that's why he has to ask consent from her if he could fight, at least Lacus knows that she wasn't being forced to give up the keys in order just to save their hides. You are giving Lacus' character an injustice, good sir.
Well, Dully HAS to act like the villain now right? Look, if Dully knew where Lacus was headed, or unusually enough, since Lacus' flight to space, he could've at least tried to mark down where Lacus was headed, or maybe set traps for her (like setting the airport or whatever it was up as a trap), then we do know for certain that it was, indeed, Dully who wanted her dead. With Lacus in space, he only served to further make himself much more the "suspect" if something bad happened to Lacus in space, and we all know how intelligent Dully was in trying to "assassinate" her in the orphanage. This completely goes against the care he has done in the orphanage, because for intel, he already managed to locate Lacus without alerting Terminal; if he could do it once, he could do it countless of times. But it seems Morosawa forgot to go about this.
It completely goes against the assassination attempt, how it was set up. At least if Dully was to blame for that instance, he could do it countless times if he so needed.
What? Was there any instance that Lacus knew what happened to Freedom? It couldn't be because she heard Freedom was destroyed and has magically constructed the Strike Freedom like that. At least now Lacus knows about things going on down below, she could act accordingly and not get herself caught and almost got herself killed.
You probably didn't see how Lacus dealt with those people, right? And also, forgot to see that I did say that in technicality they didn't have to do anything AGAINST Miss Clyne, but Miss Clyne's interference (using the battle cry that she is doing these things for peace) made it into her business and got them killed off. They are probably the only ones intelligent enough to see through Lacus' guise of peace as well if they were allowed to live, so they had to be killed off. It was the same that happened in SEED. Do you think if Zala survived, and Lacus all has those things going on for her vanish, would she be as feared? No way. She would only be remembered as a girl who wanted some attention for herself, tried to lead a failed rebellion, stole top secret military secrets from ZAFT, entrusted the Freedom to an enemy, and be showed up for even trying to establish an intelligence network or establishing herself an MS development factory (if Dully in this case survived). She has no reason at all to do those things. And she will be captured and then treated as the criminal that she is, treason and all the bells and whistles that go with it. Fukuda had to give in to his wife's and the fans wishes, so we get Destiny, and her plothole character. Can you seriously think of a character who has done a lot of things and weren't punished for doing so? Mary Sues and Gary Stus not included. at least, even in real life rebellions, some of them do get punished for what they did, and they also suffer consequences if things go wrong, and they get people who don't like them. Not Lacus.
What? Um, Lacus is a mediator of the EA/PLANTs, and she was being welcomed in PLANTs for a reason. She must also have a lot of power, because she made Kira into a whitecoat. Certainly not something a mediator could pull off on her own. And since you seem to dislike Shinn, let me remind you that if Shinn wasn't controlled by what happened, I guess Shinn would probably be killed off too for being useless and a threat to the CF taking full charge of all positions of power in PLANTs and Earth. Why would PLANTs would want to give in to Lacus' wishes for making Kira a whitecoat if she wasn't deemed as "powerful" enough? Or if they respect Lacus as some sort of leader for that matter? Shinn is under Lacus' command and you know it does. Shinn could be used to great effect to do other "barbaric" things that you seem to bundle him in with. There you go.

@ Sir Dearka

@.@;; what sovereignty? PLANTs/ EA and all other countries were effectively made back to what they were BEFORE the first war happened in SEED. There was no issue with it. Destiny PLAN wasn't even just effectively talking about treating the entire world as a lab test or something. It was only about assigning the right jobs to people with the right genetic makeup for it. It's like countries would only have to follow the genetic superiority of their constituents and it would theoretically allow for no more wars to happen.

Anyway, you say that she has the right not to violate it. So I guess this makes it pretty clear that she did violate it.

So in the case of your argument, it's like you're saying that stealing is also OK unless you were caught. In this case, you did still STEAL, and it is wrong. This is the same thing that applies to Lacus. She violated the Treaty, whatever reason that you say that she didn't because she fought for the people. etc. In your logic, it would also be right to assume that killing is also not subject to any kind of punishment, because yes, it can be right under some set conditions like defending oneself from getting killed...but you still killed a person, you took someone else's life, and killing by most accounts and perspectives is bad first and foremost. It still is the same.

The laws were created in a way that it would only allow killing to be forgiven up to a certain degree, and it also is dependent on the accused capacity to secure themselves excellent lawyers, and in some cultures we could be faced with an entirely new cultural perspective in killing other people (like we have an old concept here in the Philippines: "ubusan ng lahi" or vanquishing/killing an entire clan of related kin of the suspect due to something bad that was done to the victim and the victim's family is retaliated at as well until there is literally none left on both sides; not sure if it still happens though in this day and age) or themselves/suicide, like what happens in seppuku (not sure if it is still relevant today). They might think it right, but we may think it wrong, cause it goes against our own upbringing, so it really IS a matter of perspective, but the situation still remains the same, taking another person's life.

@ monstert

You just completely contradicted yourself. In this case, the Treaty then applies to EVERYONE on the planet and in the PLANTs, because the Treaty doesn't only apply to both PLANTs and EA. So yes, Lacus violated it.

So can you give concrete examples as to why you think she didn't break the Treaty? She has Freedom, then she created the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, which could be theoretically being built in the last 2 years from the end of SEED to the point wherein the SF and IJ were first deployed. They were among those completely banned for what they represent.
But then again, since everybody is making a joke of the Junius Treaty, then we should just state that it was indeed just a joke to make for debate fuel like this.

But still, like PLANTs/ EA, Lacus is also one of the many who violated the Treaty. I do not see why you can't comprehend this fact.

So um, how does this not include Lacus in the Treaty breaking?

SF and IJ couldn't HAVE been built in a few days, or few episodes, or a few weeks.

2008-07-01, 06:26	Link #384
Eidolon Sniper Tsubasa No Kami Artist Join Date: May 2004 Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD	Spoiler for Neku: @ Neku @.@; wait what? Then ignore what I just said. But then again, I was talking about her position in the Archangel. I don't know. I mean, Djibril is also a villain, and he should be more than angry/furious enough that Lacus is making such a big fool out of the EA and all the other evil Naturals with him. Why does the suspicion always fall on Dully? But then again the EA is just a bunch of one-dimensional people in Destiny, so it's an injustice on their part if they were given an instance of extreme intelligence like that. Of course, I am only kidding. Seriously, I don't get it why Dully is the only one who gets the short end of the stick in the assassination debate, where there are other people who could be credited with it as well. Unwilling? Are you sure? Unwilling = Orb will stop their assistance at once, whatever reason that they have. It's their neutrality on the line you know. Lacus allowed Kira to fight again, going against her stance that she doesn't want to fight anymore/ considers herself retired from the war. Being persuaded to do so does not equally mean that Lacus would allow him to fight. She held back because she knew that it was a war wherein she didn't want to get Kira involved in again. By consenting, at least Lacus knew that she trusts Kira enough to handle the battle for them in the orphanage, and she was prepared to undergo that same test again, and this was shown when she went with the Archangel; she didn't need to be persuaded to do something against her will. Lacus could easily just hand over the keys to Kira. She was at a personal turmoil because she sincerely wanted to have peace or still not get themselves involved in the war, that was why it was hard for her. Persuasion in this context would mean that Lacus' heart really isn't in at what Kira was fighting for when they were saved in the orphanage, she could've easily distracted Kira because her heart wasn't in it, and they could've gotten all themselves killed. Asking consent from Lacus showed in how Lacus reacted during the entire scene when Freedom defeated those "ZAFT" MS. Kira must know how hard it is for Lacus to accept that he will have to fight again, that's why he has to ask consent from her if he could fight, at least Lacus knows that she wasn't being forced to give up the keys in order just to save their hides. You are giving Lacus' character an injustice, good sir. Well, Dully HAS to act like the villain now right? Look, if Dully knew where Lacus was headed, or unusually enough, since Lacus' flight to space, he could've at least tried to mark down where Lacus was headed, or maybe set traps for her (like setting the airport or whatever it was up as a trap), then we do know for certain that it was, indeed, Dully who wanted her dead. With Lacus in space, he only served to further make himself much more the "suspect" if something bad happened to Lacus in space, and we all know how intelligent Dully was in trying to "assassinate" her in the orphanage. This completely goes against the care he has done in the orphanage, because for intel, he already managed to locate Lacus without alerting Terminal; if he could do it once, he could do it countless of times. But it seems Morosawa forgot to go about this. It completely goes against the assassination attempt, how it was set up. At least if Dully was to blame for that instance, he could do it countless times if he so needed. What? Was there any instance that Lacus knew what happened to Freedom? It couldn't be because she heard Freedom was destroyed and has magically constructed the Strike Freedom like that. At least now Lacus knows about things going on down below, she could act accordingly and not get herself caught and almost got herself killed. You probably didn't see how Lacus dealt with those people, right? And also, forgot to see that I did say that in technicality they didn't have to do anything AGAINST Miss Clyne, but Miss Clyne's interference (using the battle cry that she is doing these things for peace) made it into her business and got them killed off. They are probably the only ones intelligent enough to see through Lacus' guise of peace as well if they were allowed to live, so they had to be killed off. It was the same that happened in SEED. Do you think if Zala survived, and Lacus all has those things going on for her vanish, would she be as feared? No way. She would only be remembered as a girl who wanted some attention for herself, tried to lead a failed rebellion, stole top secret military secrets from ZAFT, entrusted the Freedom to an enemy, and be showed up for even trying to establish an intelligence network or establishing herself an MS development factory (if Dully in this case survived). She has no reason at all to do those things. And she will be captured and then treated as the criminal that she is, treason and all the bells and whistles that go with it. Fukuda had to give in to his wife's and the fans wishes, so we get Destiny, and her plothole character. Can you seriously think of a character who has done a lot of things and weren't punished for doing so? Mary Sues and Gary Stus not included. at least, even in real life rebellions, some of them do get punished for what they did, and they also suffer consequences if things go wrong, and they get people who don't like them. Not Lacus. What? Um, Lacus is a mediator of the EA/PLANTs, and she was being welcomed in PLANTs for a reason. She must also have a lot of power, because she made Kira into a whitecoat. Certainly not something a mediator could pull off on her own. And since you seem to dislike Shinn, let me remind you that if Shinn wasn't controlled by what happened, I guess Shinn would probably be killed off too for being useless and a threat to the CF taking full charge of all positions of power in PLANTs and Earth. Why would PLANTs would want to give in to Lacus' wishes for making Kira a whitecoat if she wasn't deemed as "powerful" enough? Or if they respect Lacus as some sort of leader for that matter? Shinn is under Lacus' command and you know it does. Shinn could be used to great effect to do other "barbaric" things that you seem to bundle him in with. There you go. @ Sir Dearka @.@;; what sovereignty? PLANTs/ EA and all other countries were effectively made back to what they were BEFORE the first war happened in SEED. There was no issue with it. Destiny PLAN wasn't even just effectively talking about treating the entire world as a lab test or something. It was only about assigning the right jobs to people with the right genetic makeup for it. It's like countries would only have to follow the genetic superiority of their constituents and it would theoretically allow for no more wars to happen. Anyway, you say that she has the right not to violate it. So I guess this makes it pretty clear that she did violate it. So in the case of your argument, it's like you're saying that stealing is also OK unless you were caught. In this case, you did still STEAL, and it is wrong. This is the same thing that applies to Lacus. She violated the Treaty, whatever reason that you say that she didn't because she fought for the people. etc. In your logic, it would also be right to assume that killing is also not subject to any kind of punishment, because yes, it can be right under some set conditions like defending oneself from getting killed...but you still killed a person, you took someone else's life, and killing by most accounts and perspectives is bad first and foremost. It still is the same. The laws were created in a way that it would only allow killing to be forgiven up to a certain degree, and it also is dependent on the accused capacity to secure themselves excellent lawyers, and in some cultures we could be faced with an entirely new cultural perspective in killing other people (like we have an old concept here in the Philippines: "ubusan ng lahi" or vanquishing/killing an entire clan of related kin of the suspect due to something bad that was done to the victim and the victim's family is retaliated at as well until there is literally none left on both sides; not sure if it still happens though in this day and age) or themselves/suicide, like what happens in seppuku (not sure if it is still relevant today). They might think it right, but we may think it wrong, cause it goes against our own upbringing, so it really IS a matter of perspective, but the situation still remains the same, taking another person's life. @ monstert You just completely contradicted yourself. In this case, the Treaty then applies to EVERYONE on the planet and in the PLANTs, because the Treaty doesn't only apply to both PLANTs and EA. So yes, Lacus violated it. So can you give concrete examples as to why you think she didn't break the Treaty? She has Freedom, then she created the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, which could be theoretically being built in the last 2 years from the end of SEED to the point wherein the SF and IJ were first deployed. They were among those completely banned for what they represent. But then again, since everybody is making a joke of the Junius Treaty, then we should just state that it was indeed just a joke to make for debate fuel like this. But still, like PLANTs/ EA, Lacus is also one of the many who violated the Treaty. I do not see why you can't comprehend this fact. So um, how does this not include Lacus in the Treaty breaking? SF and IJ couldn't HAVE been built in a few days, or few episodes, or a few weeks. __________________ Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!