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Old 2009-07-21, 04:46   Link #1795
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Wow, one night goes by and suddenly this subsection implodes.

Iīll keep it to certain points, I donīt want to keep the whole day doing single line replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Funny. When you say self-centered I get the picture of Sheryl fom the earlier stage of the series.
I wasn't talking about the beginning of the series. I am talking about the series as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I guess we differ there. I don't see Alto as being into pity (at any rate, he steadfastly refuses to pity Sheryl in the latter part of the series).

And I think if he had merely felt like he had to protect her, he would've gotten tired of that long before the end of the series. Of course, no matter what, he would've saved her in episode 25...but before she left Frontier, they were still hanging out, doing things...being friends.
I guess using "pity" was the wrong word, I was just following your own lead there. I was thinking more along the lines of "feels responsible / protective of Ranka".

And nowhere did I say that they were not friends... I think you are interpreting things into my answers which are not there. I donīt know if youīve convinced yourself that I somehow hate Ranka and donīt believe that Alto truly was her friend... that is not true. I do not hate Ranka per se, I hate that she didnīt grow up like the others did and still can keep being a competitor for Alto( I wonīt get into my way of thinking that she only is that in her own mind... thatīd open a wholly other can of worms ). I think Alto truly was her friend in the end... but only that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Hey I also think Ranka has her development too..glad to know someone else also has similar viewpoint
Of course Ranka has grown from episode one, but in a stunted way, IMO. She clearly gained tons of self-confidence, but she still fundamentally approaches things from a "How does this relate to me?" perspective, while Sheryl and Alto do not. How do I know this? Because the show went out of its way to show me that they cared about the perspective of other people, in case of Sheryl and Alto, and very conspiciously did not with Ranka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Ehhhh? Where does he say this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
The translation I have says he joined in order to protect Ranka, plain and simple.
Ahem. You might want to keep your answers refuting me straight from one paragraph to the next, because contradicting yourself like this makes your whole argument look silly, especially if you are coming this aggressively at me.

I said Ranka is why he joined the military. Which is 100% correct, if you remember that from episode one ( Yack Deculture Edition ) he was not sure how we would go about piloting, only that he wanted to be a pilot. He was not sure at that time that he wanted to be a military pilot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
How is she ultimately self-centred? There are many occasions in which she shows concern or interest in others. There are occasions where she steps back from her own wishes so as not to get in the way. See ep 4, when Alto tries to console her over the Miss Macross results, she instead takes the opportunity to congratulate him on passing his SMS entry tests. Or ep 12 where she puts herself in harm's way to help. Or - and you're going to love (hate) this one - going to try and stop the fighting with the Vajra. Regardless of what you think of the plan, or what happened, were her motivations self-centred?

Does she have moments of self-centredness? Sure. It's only human. Most characters in the series have several such moments.
Things like congratulating others on a test well done is normal social behaviour. I am not saying that Ranka is antisocial. However, she demonstrates a quite stunning disregard for Altos motivations and deeper knowledge about him until very late in the series ( the very moment she decides to leave Frontier, to be exact ). That is something quite unsettling, if one is to take her "love" for Alto seriously. I think I know the difference between a crush and being in love ( having been in both situations, first one quite more than the other ), and Ranka exhibited all symptons of having a crush on Alto.

And, yeah, she did evolve until a certain point, which is about to the half-way of the series. It is at episode 19 where she begins to backslide in a BIG way. She leaves the president hanging to chase after Ai-kun, decides that EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ALTO, totally loses it because she finds Alto holding Sheryl ( which couldnīt have been because Sheryl had fainting spells... oh, wait, it was! ) and suddenly she just cannot sing anymore for the people of Frontier... although she herself had said before that she wanted to do just that. She has a total null-reaction to her best friend being injured in front of her. How exactly is that not self-centered? How does that not lack empathy?

Grmbl. I see I still got a lot rage points left, I better make a willpower check before going into a wyrm frenzy. <obscure roleplaying reference inserted >

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Sheryl can elicit a similar response... Orphan girl, never met her parents, raised in a bubble of stardom... and toward the end the tragic, falling star who's also dying. So who's to say that his feelings for Sheryl are any different than those for Ranka?
Itīs definitely a matter of interpretation. I think I got clear signs that his feelings for Sheryl are romantic and true love. And you believe that he also loves Ranka romantically, while I regard his feelings for her to be love of a "best friend / big brother" kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Irony.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
And what were those?

Ranka makes a point very early on that one of the reasons she likes Alto is that he listens to her. That can mean a lot to someone.
Yeah, it can. Itīs also another notch in the "Ranka doesnīt care to get to know Alto" argument.

As for Sheryls motivations, Iīd say she first liked that Alto didnīt treat her like a celebrity. They both developed a deeper both in episode six, when they both found out that they didnīt like their respective homes. Sheryl did interest herself for Alto to find out that he was a kabuki actor, as evidenced in episode 10. She remembered that Alto wanted to fly in a real sky, which is from where she got the idea to take him with her to Gallia IV, she exhausted herself almost into fainting, wanting to give him his present in episode 12.... itīs simply that she cares about his feelings and desires.

Iīm sure Ranka wants him to be happy, too, but I think she approaches it from the wrong perspective, i.e "Alto would be most happy by being with me!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Bring them up if you want to. I'm sure trying to say anything to the contrary will be like talking to a wall, but...
I donīt think you want to get me really started. Iīve already written a mountain about all the issues I have in this reply alone, if Iīd go after every problem I have in detail... well, one other day, maybe. I got more free time after Thursday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
But she does ask. Ergo she is interested. Who cares about the timeline. Time, opportunity and circumstance can all play roles.
Erm, the timeline is quite important in the Sheryl / Alto / Ranka triangle. Asking the first real personal question at the very moment you decide to leave is not what Iīd call good judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Y'know...it kinda sounds to me like everyone decided they hated Ranka, and then scrutinized everything she did in the absolute worst possible light they could.

This is not a discussion, this is just a reiteration of points the Ranka-Haters have agreed on. It's like talking to a group of Fundamentalists.

As such, I'm done.
Now, that is fundamentally unfair, Gubaba. Itīs not us who suddenly decided to give a broadside wall-of-text point-by-point refutal of every single thing said yesterday, but Snowblind. Do you blame us for simply responding to his points? Iīve tried to make my points cogently and from a standpoint of analysis of the series ( where I can... obviously things like my distinctions between a crush and true love come from personal experiences ).

Ranka simply stands out as the most fallible of the characters. Since her decisions negatively affected so many people on Frontier and since the series in the end doesnīt clean up her act ( as notably, it does with all the other main characters ), she receives a great share of negative scrutiny. The triangle ending is just the dessert on top of that, although a hugely irritating one for me, personally.


BTW, people, the whole "texting" sillyness has really gone on long enough. The point Gubaba was making is "Hey, I remember she and Alto were texting each other all the time during the early episodes". To which I responded "There were a total of three text messages between over the early episodes and none of them were Alto telling her anything about himself.". I really donīt know what more there is to argue about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I wouldn't call it so much as hate but it just feels like someone stated reasons to not like her and exaggerated it in which everyone else followed. It doesn't help that Ranka is one of the love interests in the series. I just don't buy into most of the reasons that people dislike her for. A difference in opinions..
A reasonable argument. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
True. But hearing regurgitated points for the umpteenth time (when they didn't convince me the first time) doesn't interest me. If it's a real conversation, fine and good. If it's just a list of the talking points, nuh-uh. I've heard 'em, you've heard 'em, why give anyone a chance to spout 'em again?

<snip>
Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
I guess the whole point is hoping that someone on the other side has a lightbulb going off over his head and suddenly understands and accepts the other sides viewpoint.

Not very likely, I know. Iīve been in internet discussions for the last thirteen years, and it is very seldom that someone really changes someones else mind during such a discussion. The last time it happened to me here was when Father Hentai came up with a second workable hypothesis on how pre-planned Rankas flight from Frontier was.

What then is the point of such futility? Exchange of information, of ideas... the simple fun of discussing a series and characters we all like ( or dislike... also a motivation ) very much, with people who also care about our passion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
There's something mean and nasty that I thought about saying...but since I recommended restraint before, I guess I gotta put my money where my mouth is, huh?
And why did you think about anything nasty to say? Tak cited factual information, it wasnīt something mean-spirited. Or did you mean something nasty about the chinese fans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Let's put it this way. It's hard to argue here and to get a confirmation you have to clarify every single posting you do. It's extremely hard and mostly it ends ups ending in wall of texts just like Snowblind currently.

So? Is it too much to ask that people make clear arguments? It only ever gets this heated when both sides get into the nitty-gritty of the character motivations and dig trenches. To my mind, discussions like this can be solved with good character analysis. Iīve presented my arguments, now the other side has the chance to refute them, if they can. Simple as that.

Look, nobody here should attack someones statement of "I like Ranka". But if someone comes in and says "I like Ranka and I think she totally understood what makes Alto tick!" ( just a random example ), then this person sets her/himself up for an argument, because quite a lot of people disagree with this.
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