[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Haak

I thought it was very clear that she wanted powers to help aswell. Just look at episode 1. And again in episode 9 when she was completely blanked out of the converstaion and also tried to help that guy who was getting beaten up but couldn't.

Well that was an argument that worked before she actually got her power in ep 10 when she clearly showed the reason for wanting a power which 1st couldn't really amke any difference in helping and secnd she said nothing about using it to help people at all.

Originally Posted by Haak

From what we saw, yes but we saw very little. It is possible that she tried very hard and was just repeatedly let down and simply gave up.

I highly doubdt that. Yes she coudln't gain a power but she could study seriously to achive something instead of going around doing nothing and be mind-absent in class.

Originally Posted by Haak

We don't really know if Saten told them about the side effects. If she didn't I think that would've been a very stupid thing to do but not malicious.

Well I doubt 3 people who's lives are ok will take something shady that might turn them into criminals and something even worse might happen. People seem to really forget the criminal tendency of LU users. We know only part of them are like since we know everything that happens around but Saten knows it most probably leads to it.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think it''s a different case for Saten. She's constantly surrounded by people who have what she wants and use it all the time. Imagine rubbing salt on your wound every single day. And Saten didn't just want it. It was her dream. And as we can see from her keeping her moms lucky charm I think she wanted to do it for them aswell.

And that's because she surrounded herself with them. Only criminals and Judjement can use their power in the open.
Well her mother didn't even want her to go in the first place cause she though it was dangerous. That would mean that Sate just proved her point by doing somethin dangerous. Also she could always go back to her home and from what we know her mother would probably be happier and in no way dissapointed.

Originally Posted by Haak

If she dropped her hopes and dreams then it does make sense, but really. All the episodes upto this point only made things worse for her.

Yes but every person drops their childish dreams at one point. I seriously don't see a reason at all why she should be special. Everoyne's dreams go down in flames when the grow older but no one goes around doint what they want to do by sayin "well its my dream so it's ok and I had no idea that it might be dangerous". How do you see that happening in reality?

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't think he was arguing that it was an excuse. Just that it was sympathetic. From what you say, it makes things sound as if Saten was a cold blooded monster. I don't think it's fair to ever judge anyone really.

Well sorry if it sounded like that I didn't really meanit as such. I just said I can't feel sympathy towards her because her actions were wrong and she even involved her friends without understanding what she was getting them into which is even worse. So in this sense you could say she's cold blooded.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Who the hell gives over their whole lives to "helping others"? Precious few, that's who. On the other hand, wanting to be good at something for the fun of it... Well, there are plenty of athletes out there. And gamers. And fanfiction writers. And countless other inconsequential hobbies which nevertheless are serious business to those who practice them.

Yep you're right people like those are rare. But we saw taht in general Saten didn't want a power to help people she wanted it because she wanted it for the sake of having one. And yes hobbies are serious business but I don't see how that can work as an excuse for them to do somthing similar to what Saten did.
Shinji's example with the athletes and steroids a few episodes back still works best for this situation

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What, you need your friends to do your thinking for you?

Well really now I never said that. Anyway when you're depressed and about to do something that is obviously dangerous you usally talk to people. At least that's the normal way to do things.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

A lot of dreams are crushed all the time, yes. But if a kid sees a chance to attain it, isn't it normal to reach for it?

In a case where you use a shady mp3.file that people beat each other for, is inviestigated at the moment and from what Satem knew it most probably led to commiting crimes had and had unkwon side effects absolutely NO. I can't see how someone could even consider this is ok to do.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She hasn't become a delinquent or a bum. She's not the most serious of students, but if you think all students do nothing but study (let alone 13 years old kids), then you've never set foot in a school.

I have no idea what kids do in school and from waht I see around me I do believe it's not study. Anyways when I was 13 years old I studied a lot^^ Of course no one can study all that time but from what we've seen it's not like she's trying.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Did she? For that matter, does the LU have a side effect? She didn't know for sure. Does it lead to committing crime? She doesn't know either. Heck, I don't think it does, and we've seen more than she has.

Well "people who use it seem to have a tendency to commit crimes and it probably has unknow side effects" coming from people who are investigating an uknow device that lets you level up in an uknown way and is sold "under the table" seems to give a pretty good idea it's dangerous. The "we've seen more than she has" part actually makes you think that. Saten doesn't know all the things we know. The only info she has about it is the one I just said.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but from what she'd heard, there were plenty of LU users walking around, so how bad could they be? Kuroko and the rest had stayed deliberately vague because the details were still more or less secret.

Where was it mentioned at all there were plenty of LU users walking around? In fact Saten didn't even know the ones the encountered in the early episodes where LU users. The only thing that she knew about it was what Kuroko told her which I said above.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I haven't really bothered to post in a while, but the Saten bashing is really fucking ridiculous. Here are some things you guys seem to have completely misconcieved:

Lol I never though I could use the F word. Kind of makes me annoyed I always refrained to use it
Anyways I would say that Saten bashing is more pointless thar ridiculous since epople have different views and in most cases you can't change their view with talking to them on a forum since for one thing the have no idea who you are and they don't care. But hey it's not like there's somehing else in Railgun to talk about right now.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

First of all, Kuroko didn't tell Saten/Uiharu that level upper had side effects. She said it may have side effects. To Saten, not only was it completely vague what Level Upper's side effects were, she still had no idea that side effects were confirmed in the first place.

Yes it may have side effects and the people who use it have a tendency to commit crime. Yes that is vague indeed and she had no idea if there were any side effects or what they were. Also on that note she had no idea if it would work. So how does using it makes any sense at all? There's a term in law "Criminal negligence". Ignorance doesn't justify doing something bad.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Two. Level upper is not illegal, and it does not induce its users to commit crime. The correlation is 'users of level upper often use it to commit crime', not 'level upper somehow brainwashes its users into becoming criminals'. As for taking its users into custody, again this was stated to be for their own safety due to the possible side effects--level upper is simply an underground aid that has not been officially endorsed by the city--there is no law prohibiting its usage (obviously its very shady, but there is nothing illegal about it).

Indeed from a general point of view youre absolutely right. There were a lot of people that just used it without commiting any crimes at all. But Saten didn't know that we did. Kuroko told her something completely different. You can't use what we know to explain what a character that had no idead about those things did. Yes it's not illegal since there's no law agianst it. I just used since it would take much more time to list all the cons of using it and illegal is way shorter and implies that it's really bad.
And seriously when did the police ever investigate somthing that's ok to use unless there was something shady and bad about it? Judjment play the role of the police in To Aru and Anti skill is more like the SWAT unit.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Third, Saten's friends were ability users before level upper. As the one lifting a person said herself: 'before I could only lift a pencil' (or something; I forget). When they were talking about going to the library to study because they couldn't do anything to improve their abilities, that was the laziness of not being willing to work for their powers.

Yes it turned out like this in the end. Still I don't see how that relates to what Saten did.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Do I feel sorry for Saten? I don't know, I must admit I'm not really one for pity in any circumstance. Do I feel sympathy for her, do I hope she gets better and feel for her as a fellow human? Yes, easily. Saten may have been weak, greedy, and too moved by envy, but to call her stupid or inconsiderate is an incredible exaggeration.

Well I feel she got what was coming to her. I also want her to get better for one thing she did something that hurt her friends not only her which is really selfish and if something even worse happens to her her firends (mostly Uiharu ) will suffer even more. Also I want her to get better so she could face the concequences of her actions. And I don't like to see people suffer in general because they did something stupid but they have to learn from their mistakes.

Stupid implies she is not smart which is probably not true even if she doesn't seem to study much but I said she did something stupid as in something not smart which doesn't actually mean she's not smart. And Inconsiderate is just fine considering what she did.

Either way don't get me wrong I'm not bashing Saten as a character. I'm only bashing her for her actions this (and the end of the previous) episode. She has no excuse for what she did.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Being critics sometimes makes people forget being in the shoes of the one they are intensely putting into criticism.

Same goes for defending a character's actions.
Also

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I don't see Level Upper as the drugs that's been causing people to do crimes. There's just too many factors. Railgun has just showed us the "bad implications" of Level Upper like crimes around Gakuentoshi, and they clearly "outweighed" the good implications of Level Upper.

I want to blame Railgun for showing Level Upper as a bad thing generally, but LU isn't. It's just an exploitable power-up. It's actually the person who decides if he/she's gonna use the power-up responsibly or not. And as a secondary point, I want to blame those people for not thinking well and taking their powers for granted.

Again we knew this she didn't.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well they (some of the critics) might be looking at it from the wrong angle here. Many are assuming that this decision was based purely on just selfish want for power.

I see it as her alleviating this strong stigma that goes around about Level 0's.
I'll use stronger stigmas to see if I can put up a clearer picture of where her mind is at. Despite the obvious claims to the contrary I'll get from people's responses, just hear me out. Have you never felt the pull to get married, and start a family, to just get into a relationship, even if there is no real need for you to do that? Well, that's because there is an almost indeliable mark on people who are choosing to remain alone. With Saten, you see that people who can't or don't progress are seen as dropouts, failures, defective, like being in a permanent Special Education program, and for any of you who have been in one of those, its kinda humiliating.

Even Mikoto seems to have understood what was going through her head and doesn't condemn her for it, because she too, ran to seek something much higher when it wasn't "necessary." This is on top of a lot of different things people have already pointed out, crimes so bad the Anti-Skill/Judgment can't keep up, the danger/helplessness she must feel daily, but also having that will to want to do something even when its dangerous for her. All of these things we're a part of her thought processes.

You have a point but I don't really see how this can justifies any of her actions at all. Y
Also as we saw most of the crimes were caused by people that used the LU in the first place.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Rather than thinking of her giving something dangerous to her friends, look at it this way. She is a middle school student. She is thinking they want it as badly as she does, and since they are her friends, she wants to help them. They have heard all the shady rumors of the Level Upper, and they aren't brainless animals, so they have decided to take it. She didn't force it onto their ears. If they had rejected it as too shady, I'm sure she would have just done it herself eventually, she wouldn't force them to do it. Yes, she didn't want to try using it alone, but they themselves tried it of their own volition. She was ignorant of the side effects until Akemi just collapsed, and she has only seen the good benefits of LU.

All they knew about he LU was that it increased someone's level and it was expensive. Sorry or saying this again and agian in one post but she knew that it most probably is dangerous for the user and is also under investigation form Judjemnt which plays the role of the Police in AC. If they knew all this I doubt they would have used it.
Also that was extremely selfsih and inconsiderate of her. When you don't have the resolve to do something shady and dangerous getting you're friends to do it with you is by no means OK in fact it makes things even worse. on top of that skipping the part that it's actually dangerous is really wrong.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Umm, so Saten and her friend falling unconscious from using Level Upper is harmless? Where are you coming up with this? I somehow doubt that Kiyama is spreading this thing around with the users' interests at heart.
So she's not handing out Level Upper with the express purpose of harming the users. Neither do heroine, dope, coke, and ecstasy dealers; they're not dealing drugs to hurt people, they're dealing the stuff for their own goals and purposes, in their case to make money. Are you going to say drug dealing is harmless too?

That is a very good point.

Anyways sorry about this wall of text but I felt like I needed to reply to everyone since most of this was in response to my comment. It's probably full of spelling mistakes but I believe you could get the general idea^^