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ElizLestrad · 2010-09-15, 08:47

Oh PLEASE....

Its historical fact that Marsailles wasnt sent to Afrika because he was good. He was sent their for being a worthless insubordinate drunkard playboy who missed most of his early operations due to him having hangovers. Even the JG52 wanted him gone.

As for "beating the Lufbery Circle", thats hardly a difinitive reason to say someones the best. The Lufberys been around since WWI, and the likelyhood that Marsailles was the first one to do it is highly unlikely, especially when you had aces like the Red Baron.

Hartmann on the other hand:

"Unlike Hans-Joachim Marseille, who was a marksman and expert in the art of deflection shooting, Hartmann was a master of stalk-and-ambush tactics. By his own account, he was convinced that 80% of the pilots he downed did not even realize what hit them. He relied on the powerful engine of his Bf-109 for high-power sweeps and quick approaches, occasionally diving through entire enemy formations to take advantage of the confusion that followed in order to disengage."

"His favourite method of attack was to hold fire until extremely close (20 m (66 ft) or less), then unleash a short burst at point-blank range—a technique he learned while flying as wingman of his former commander, Walter Krupinski, who favoured this approach. This technique, as opposed to long-range shooting, allowed him to:[9][35]

-reveal his position only at the last possible moment
-compensate for the low muzzle velocity of the slower firing 30 mm MK 108 -equipping some of the later Bf 109 models (though most of his victories were claimed with Messerschmitts equipped with the high-velocity MG 151 cannon)
-place his shots accurately with minimum waste of ammunition
-prevent the adversary from taking evasive actions"

"However, firing at close range ran the risk of having to fly through the debris of a damaged or exploding aircraft, thereby damaging his own fighter in the process (much of the damage Hartmann sustained in combat was caused by collision with flying debris). If it was dangerous to dog-fight further he would break off and content himself with one victory. His careful approach was described by himself by the line "See – Decide – Attack – Break": observe the enemy, decide how to proceed with the attack, make the attack, and then disengage to re-evaluate the situation."

"Erich Hartmann flew 1,404 combat missions during World War II, resulting in 825 engagements,[51] and was never shot down.

He was never wounded and never bailed out due to damage inflicted by enemy pilots. His kill tally included some 200 various single-engined Soviet-built fighters, more than 80 US-built P-39s, 15 Il-2 ground attack aircraft, and 10 twin-engined medium bombers."

on the other hand

"However, on 23 April, Marseille himself was shot down during his third sortie of that day by Sous-Lieutenant James Denis, a Free French pilot with No. 73 Squadron RAF, "James Denis shot down Marseille again on 21 May 1941" By the same guy no less...now thats sad.

If the enemy doesnt know your there until you appear out of nowhere from behind at such a range that they couldnt even react...thats not easy. And the fact that Hartmann never got himself killed flying through the exploding planes he just shot with his suicidally insane tactics is a testiment to his skill as a pilot. Not saying he never had to land a plane to to damage, but he never had to do so because of enemy fire. Even when he finally crashed and was captured by the russians, it was because of him flying into debris, not because someone got a lucky shot and brought him down.

Point is, theres a reason Hartmann earned the title "The Ace of Aces" from historians and Marsailles didnt. Simply put Hartmann is and, judging by current scores, will forever be the most successful pilot in the history of combat aviation. Hell modern day pilots havnt even been able to get into the same solar system as these guys. Most Korean and Vietnam pilots scores arn't even into the 20s...which is pretty sad actually...

Marsailles may have been good, but statistically Hartmann was better and in the end, that's what matters in the pages of history... results.

And, if you think about it, Hartmann also beats Marsailles in making a total fool out of oneself....observe:

Marsailles: Drunkard playboy

vs

Hartmann: In March 1944, Erich Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Walter Krupinski and Johannes Wiese were summoned to Adolf Hitler's Berghof in Berchtesgaden. Barkhorn was to be honoured with the Swords, while Hartmann, Krupinski and Wiese were to receive the Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross. On the train, all four of them got drunk on cognac and champagne. Supporting each other and unable to stand, they arrived at Berchtesgaden. Major Nicolaus von Below, Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant, was shocked. After some sobering up, Hartmann was still intoxicated. Hartmann took a German officer hat from a stand and put it on, but it was too large. Von Below became upset, told Hartmann it was Hitler's and ordered him to put it back.

I still hold that Hartmann is damn lucky he wasnt taken out to the toolshed and shot. I somehow doubt that if it had been Hitler who had walked in that he would have been so forgiving. I mean, genocidal maniacs dont mess around...

---------------------

Back on topic though. I did notice that when Jaeger was narrating the fight that some of the maneuvers didnt match up. Thought it was funny. Cant wait for Barkhorn's episode.

2010-09-15, 08:47	Link #781
ElizLestrad Member Join Date: Oct 2007	Oh PLEASE.... Its historical fact that Marsailles wasnt sent to Afrika because he was good. He was sent their for being a worthless insubordinate drunkard playboy who missed most of his early operations due to him having hangovers. Even the JG52 wanted him gone. As for "beating the Lufbery Circle", thats hardly a difinitive reason to say someones the best. The Lufberys been around since WWI, and the likelyhood that Marsailles was the first one to do it is highly unlikely, especially when you had aces like the Red Baron. Hartmann on the other hand: "Unlike Hans-Joachim Marseille, who was a marksman and expert in the art of deflection shooting, Hartmann was a master of stalk-and-ambush tactics. By his own account, he was convinced that 80% of the pilots he downed did not even realize what hit them. He relied on the powerful engine of his Bf-109 for high-power sweeps and quick approaches, occasionally diving through entire enemy formations to take advantage of the confusion that followed in order to disengage." "His favourite method of attack was to hold fire until extremely close (20 m (66 ft) or less), then unleash a short burst at point-blank range—a technique he learned while flying as wingman of his former commander, Walter Krupinski, who favoured this approach. This technique, as opposed to long-range shooting, allowed him to:[9][35] -reveal his position only at the last possible moment -compensate for the low muzzle velocity of the slower firing 30 mm MK 108 -equipping some of the later Bf 109 models (though most of his victories were claimed with Messerschmitts equipped with the high-velocity MG 151 cannon) -place his shots accurately with minimum waste of ammunition -prevent the adversary from taking evasive actions" "However, firing at close range ran the risk of having to fly through the debris of a damaged or exploding aircraft, thereby damaging his own fighter in the process (much of the damage Hartmann sustained in combat was caused by collision with flying debris). If it was dangerous to dog-fight further he would break off and content himself with one victory. His careful approach was described by himself by the line "See – Decide – Attack – Break": observe the enemy, decide how to proceed with the attack, make the attack, and then disengage to re-evaluate the situation." "Erich Hartmann flew 1,404 combat missions during World War II, resulting in 825 engagements,[51] and was never shot down. He was never wounded and never bailed out due to damage inflicted by enemy pilots. His kill tally included some 200 various single-engined Soviet-built fighters, more than 80 US-built P-39s, 15 Il-2 ground attack aircraft, and 10 twin-engined medium bombers." on the other hand "However, on 23 April, Marseille himself was shot down during his third sortie of that day by Sous-Lieutenant James Denis, a Free French pilot with No. 73 Squadron RAF, "James Denis shot down Marseille again on 21 May 1941" By the same guy no less...now thats sad. If the enemy doesnt know your there until you appear out of nowhere from behind at such a range that they couldnt even react...thats not easy. And the fact that Hartmann never got himself killed flying through the exploding planes he just shot with his suicidally insane tactics is a testiment to his skill as a pilot. Not saying he never had to land a plane to to damage, but he never had to do so because of enemy fire. Even when he finally crashed and was captured by the russians, it was because of him flying into debris, not because someone got a lucky shot and brought him down. Point is, theres a reason Hartmann earned the title "The Ace of Aces" from historians and Marsailles didnt. Simply put Hartmann is and, judging by current scores, will forever be the most successful pilot in the history of combat aviation. Hell modern day pilots havnt even been able to get into the same solar system as these guys. Most Korean and Vietnam pilots scores arn't even into the 20s...which is pretty sad actually... Marsailles may have been good, but statistically Hartmann was better and in the end, that's what matters in the pages of history... results. And, if you think about it, Hartmann also beats Marsailles in making a total fool out of oneself....observe: Marsailles: Drunkard playboy vs Hartmann: In March 1944, Erich Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Walter Krupinski and Johannes Wiese were summoned to Adolf Hitler's Berghof in Berchtesgaden. Barkhorn was to be honoured with the Swords, while Hartmann, Krupinski and Wiese were to receive the Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross. On the train, all four of them got drunk on cognac and champagne. Supporting each other and unable to stand, they arrived at Berchtesgaden. Major Nicolaus von Below, Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant, was shocked. After some sobering up, Hartmann was still intoxicated. Hartmann took a German officer hat from a stand and put it on, but it was too large. Von Below became upset, told Hartmann it was Hitler's and ordered him to put it back. I still hold that Hartmann is damn lucky he wasnt taken out to the toolshed and shot. I somehow doubt that if it had been Hitler who had walked in that he would have been so forgiving. I mean, genocidal maniacs dont mess around... --------------------- Back on topic though. I did notice that when Jaeger was narrating the fight that some of the maneuvers didnt match up. Thought it was funny. Cant wait for Barkhorn's episode. Last edited by ElizLestrad; 2010-09-15 at 09:23.