[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

My point was that Lelouch was no portrayed as a completely suicidal guy who had simply lost it and therefore went for a Very Stupid Plan, as some people here make it sound.

And my point is that, at the same time, it wasn't portrayed as an absolutely optimal solution that was carried out at no cost or which was thought up by a psychologically stable man. Zero Requiem is the product of a sympathetic yet tortured man's attempt to fix the world, so to speak, and even its most idealized moments wouldn't be possible without the incredibly depressing events preceding them.

What we say may overlap in certain areas, indeed, but it seems we're (or at least I am) worried about countering any and all unintended implications...including those not explicitly mentioned.

Me neither. However, not once is anything stated hat paints Zero Requiem as simply a miscalculation on Lelouch's part, a result of nothing but psychological issues.

Not entirely...but the presence of psychological issues speaks for itself, honestly, in a show as melodramatic as this one and in a character as internally conflicted as Lelouch. It's not much of a leap to say that Zero Requiem was never his original plan. The plan is Lelouch's response to his circumstances and those of the world...some of which he could have avoided, as per the choices and situations I've referenced.

Now, I do believe that calling it a "miscalculation" would be an explicit judgment of the plan (or, rather, it's effectiveness) on a level that the show doesn't really want to address. I don't think the series goes that far, but there are enough "what if" questions and moments up in the air for viewers like us to interpret. I've already provided my basic views on the matter.

True, but this doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, I believe. Hm, and I think Okouchi pointed to Lelouch's pride and the "Only those willing to be shot are allowed to shoot" line that make Zero Requiem a "logical" outcome, though I'd have to look up the exact wording. Anyway, different things.

Ah, but it does have to do with what I was saying as a response. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough.

My interpretation of the show places a lot of value on the existence of choices, including Zero Requiem, and the events of the story (plus the ideas and themes in it) don't shy away from presenting them to the viewer either...implicitly and explicitly. Inner conflicts and choices go hand in hand.

As for Okouchi's statement, I think you should keep in mind that was his reply to a question about the actual ending being a "Bad End" in light of the expectations of viewers. Let me quote the relevant paragraph here for the sake of clearing this up:

—–”Still, isn’t it possible that defeating the wise ruler Schneizel, the person who was supposed to have brought order to the world, might lead to some [viewers] interpreting it as a Bad End?”

Okouchi: “That’s true. There are probably a lot of people who think of it as a Bad End, a tragedy, considering the protagonist’s, Lelouch’s end as well. However, Lelouch says in the first episode: “Only those prepared to be shot are allowed to pull the trigger themselves.” If you were to think of that as his pride, then I think his getting shot (killed) in the end was a logical end. Of course, I understand that not all of the viewers will accept this ending. There were people who wanted a happier ending, after all.”

If I understand him correctly...Okouchi is saying that yes, he knows people are sad about the ending but, in a way, it was also logical for Lelouch to end up like that because of his pride and philosophy. In other words, he's not really talking about all of the choices Lelouch himself had in-universe...but rather, he's trying to briefly explain why that kind of ending is appropriate for the protagonist and, by extension, the writer. It's not like Okouchi is denying the illusion of free will -so to speak- that fictional characters are supposed to have as part of the storyline.

It wasn't dismissed, but it was never ever mentioned, not even in a random interview.

Let's also quote Mutuality itself for a minute here:

I have made my choice — I know I did not err in choosing Suzaku as the new Zero, the one to kill me.
"Suzaku. You can kill me, right?”
“Yes. With this sword, I will kill both of you and me at the same time.”
“Yes. Lelouch vi Britannia and Kururugi Suzaku will vanish from the world in the same moment. They cannot be allowed to exist.”
“... Lelouch, is there no other way?”

“None,” I say instantly.
There may be other options.
I may have chosen a different method if I were more like Schneizel ... but for me, this is the only way. My heart and my justice will not allow me to accept any other plan.

The initial question is about Lelouch's death, but his internal monologue quickly jumps to speaking about the "method" and the "plan" as such. Of which death is a key element, yes, but if you remove that from Zero Requiem...what do you have left? Something else.

Would that have been better? Nobody can say. At the very least, Lelouch recognizes that it's his emotions (heart) and values (justice) that make the difference, not the usefulness or the potential results. All that is unsaid, left up to speculation.

Therefore, I consider it very, very unlikely that Zero Requiem itself was nothing but Lelouch's way of committing suicide in a flashy way regardless of the cost for the rest of the world. The creators would at the very least have made it a point to show us some alternatives he had in that case.

Actually, that's not how I would describe it either...as the point of the final stretch -as rushed for time and compressed as it ended up being- wasn't just to make Lelouch commit suicide but also to demonstrate that he accomplished his goal. In that context, I would have to say that showing him struggling with other alternatives wasn't a priority ("what, didn't the audience already get to see Lelouch doing that lots of times before?"). We still saw moments of tension here and there, but ending the story was the main objective.

In other words...the plan has in-universe merits, yes, but it's still something Lelouch chose to do.

If that's an issue, I would include it as one more production compromise reached along the way.