Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
No WE'RE not, YOU are. And the canon doesn't seem to support your hypothesis. The Meta-World existing is one thing; it's events don't really interfere with reality's in any way. But Keriaku's hypothesis doesn't work because it requires acknowledging that there are witches in the real world who can influence reality with objectively real magic.
Which defeats the entire purpose of the entire intellectual exercise of Umineko.
Well it's only 'fantasy' insofar as you're willing to believe that there are people, such as Rika, who have knowledge of other Fragments. And what I suggested does nothing to affect the events on the island. Even Battler only tries to deny witches within those two days. What I suggested, with Hachijo recording what she views over the Fragments, only affects the larger view or 'mystery' of Umineko, which certainly should take the meta-world into account.
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty
^Doesn't every kakera have the same killer/killers?
And if not, I don't really see a problem myself. The truth Battler is after is who killed their family. (Being Yasu, plus a possible accomplice X)
The truth ange is after, is who killed her family in her kakera. The true culprit, who is always (except possibly ange\s kakera) behiind it, is Yasu. Thats the who dunnit in every kakera.
You could say that each kakera is its own mystery, with a different who, why and how dunnit. Battler is after the general murderer, while Ange is after the Ep 3 why, why and how dunnit.
Have you playe the Higurashi VNs btw?
Well I don't know about when we open up the cat box furthur to allow Lion to exist, but I'm pretty sure the whole reason Beatrice/Clair was in a dead-end situation is because of the limited possibilities avaliable to him/her within those 2 days. So while there are infinite Fragments, these fragments are limited by the possibilities of those two days, so I don't think we can necessarily say that anyone could have done it, but it's true that the possible number of killers is a large fraction of the people on the island.
On a related note, I've been trying to figure out Beatrice's dead-end situation, and how it works when it seems to have been created by her own certain will that brings about the tragedy. Coming from a Higurashi, repeating Fragment, perspective, here's an idea I had:
We know that Yasu, the person behind the beings of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, is the one who resolves him/herself to commit this tragedy. We can also reasonably assume that the love duel between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice has a very big part in Yasu's resolve to go through with this, being somehow connected to her furniture complex he/she realizes between 1984-1986. I'm going to say this was the motive, but I'm trying to figure out Beatrice's dead-end situation rather than focus on why the crime happened. I’ll say this love duel is what creates Yasu’s certain will.
Now let's look at the very first Fragment, the first time the incident happened in time and space, before there were any observers or a catbox. The situation as I see it would be exactly as Clair describes in her play, with Yasu having become Beatrice, and Shannon eventually giving her feelings for Battler to Beatrice, and something traumatic happening to him/her between 1984-1986. Here is where I imagine it diverges. What if on the first time, Battler doesn’t come to the island. Based on Lion’s fragment, unless Battler’s return has something to do with Shannon, which seems very unlikely, this is a possibility for Beatrice’s world as well. I imagine Yasu would have prepared for Battler’s return, and thus she’d also be ready to use the gold and work with the adults. We know that some sort of ‘small’ incident would have occurred, so let’s imagine that in this first Fragment, the love duel only happens between Kanon and Shannon. Beatrice is left lonely on the sidelines, without even a chance. As we all know, no matter the size of the incident Yasu creates, it always ends in the same way, with an explosion and we can imagine the parents have a hand in this in any of the ‘small incident’ worlds.
Now let’s imagine the Fragments repeat a couple more times. We can see in Higurashi that the Fragments happen even without an observer, as when Rika only realizes the multiple worlds in hindsight, as Frederica forms out of the many memories. Let’s even imagine that Battler never comes back in the first number of Fragments. I realize that we’re never explicitly told the probability of Battler returning, so it could even be an unlikely event. Now let’s examine Beatrice. From Yasu’s play, we’re shown that she’s already on some closed off higher plane, ‘stuck in Yasu’s head’, if you will. I imagine after two or three, or more likely, many thousands of these depressing repeating Fragments where Battler never returns and Shannon and Kanon’s love duel never bears fruit with everyone ending up dead, would cause this pre-Beatrice to become more and more isolated and disassociated with the beings of Shannon and Kanon as they continually get a chance and love and she alone is left without any salvation. It is through this situation that I would see Beatrice ‘transcending’ out of Yasu’s imagined higher plane, as she realizes that the Fragments are there.
(I’ll just stop here for a note: I really like this idea because something that always bothered me about Yasu’s play was how Clair-Beatrice did seem to be on a higher plane, but it seemed closed off, and they never showed how that connected to the meta-Beatrice, or even how that led to there being a meta-Clair who could act out a play of her own life)
It would be from this realization, and the fact that it was her own ‘physical self’ with the certain will that manifests this situation, that makes up Beatrice’s ‘endless’ nature. After realizing the Fragments existed, it seems only natural to me that Beatrice would seek out the Fragments where Battler does return. But, though Beatrice can now affect which Fragments she views or participates in, she can no longer affect the physical Yasu who has the certain will to create this situation. This is what gives Beatrice the endless ability, while herself being trapped in a dead-end of October 4th and 5th, 1986. This eventually leads to Battler manifesting out of Beatrice selectively participating in only fragments where he returns. And as we see throughout the series, this also ends up being Beatrice, and by extension Yasu’s, only salvation out of the dead-end fate.
I’m satisfied with how this theory explains Beatrice’s situation, including her ill will towards Kanon and Shannon’s efforts. It even easily accounts for their semi-self-awareness. It makes sense that after x many repeating Fragments, Shannon and Kanon would become aware that they are there again, but they are nowhere near the level that Meta-Beatrice is, and don’t know anything about the Sea of Fragments.
I feel like this theory could even account for the ‘gameboard’ analogy. After thousands of years of residing alone in this closed catbox, I see no reason why Beatrice wouldn’t ‘have fun’ by overlaying her own interpretive filters (read: magic) on the same ‘boring’ situation she views over and over again. Similar to how Bernkastel started to get bored with her life, to the point of her mind almost breaking, this is how I could see Beatrice keeping her mind from breaking. We even know from various dialogues that the red/blue truth is something exclusive to Beatrice’s ‘gameboard’, not a feature of the Fragments at large. After long enough, Beatrice probably perfected her meta-mystery ‘game’, as something that would perfectly fit her and Battler’s mystery tastes. This is why Beatrice would begin to view, understand ad live her situation as a gameboard she creates, while in reality she is picking out a Fragment and overlaying her own filter on top of it, while ‘playing’ by restricting herself with the Red and clashing with the Blue.
What do you guys think? Any thoughts, comments, further speculation? I’m happy I’ve cleared all of this up in my head now