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Old 2011-03-06, 23:59   Link #22232
Keriaku
Thought Being
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I don't disagree with all of the basic idea you said. If I were to take an extreme real world equivalent, then religions, which are "things created by human minds", gave shape to a large part of human historty, they most certainly can affect reality, give meaning to people's lives, to people's death, and a lot of both good and bad things.

I also said earlier that they are "real" as ideas. I get that you disagree with that and mean that they are "real" period, and that is not something I can agree with.
UsagiTenpura, I would like to thank you for giving my theory some thought! I appreciate it. And I apologize but I'm gonna be breaking up and reordering your post a little so I can respond in a coherent fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
However I do not feel like Umineko does a positive portrayal of what you support at all, much the opposite. Even if I am to consider that each "story" is "real", they still all ended up with everyone dead and only alive as furniture within a fantasy (For an example, Rosa "summoned" by Maria in arc 4 in Beato's golden land).

In fact it sounds like that output is even worst because it makes "real" that they died over and over again (including for instance, Rosa and Maria being killed and revived iono how many times by Eva-Beato).
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
…Or maybe Rosa got enlightened by being crushed a thousand times by a demented Maria in arc 4?
I see where you're coming from, but I'll try to explain my thoughts on this.

I believe the problem you're finding is a result of you trying to apply a black and white perspective on whether the meta-world is a positive or negative thing.

First off, as a side note, I think the end result of believing in the meta-world is that death doesn't actually matter so much anymore. There is still the thoughts and emotions to take into account, but I'm going to put those aside to explain my point. Through the endless, multi-Fragment nature of the meta-world, people will keep existing. It’s not a permanent loss as in the real world.

It's true that people have the ability to misuse the 'power' they have on this realm. But if you notice, Ryuukishi always makes a point of showing that these ways of using the meta-world is 'morally wrong', and highlights the cruelty of it. For example, Battler gets very upset at Beato for enjoying EVA-Beatrice's display. Beato even spends the next little while repenting for her actions, helps people AND the climax of the game is stopping EVA-Beatrice because of her cruelty.

For MARIA in EP4, it’s true she’s being cruel, but don’t forget that Beatrice is simply giving her an outlet for the deep emotional damage she has sustained. And it’s a much better outlet then having Maria lash out against her mother in the ‘normal’ world, possibly destroying their relationship forever. She even comes out of it and retains a relatively healthy relationship with her mother afterwards (as we know that the events of the arcs are ‘after’ Sakutarou has been killed). Though, even here, Beatrice laments the fact that this is the only way for Maria to be satisfied.

If anything, don’t look at it as good and bad, but rather why it is happening. Remember, motive and ‘the heart’ is key. I think just about anytime someone does something ‘cruel’ in the meta-world, you can always understand or are given reasons why they act how they do. A big part of Umineko is highlighting the flaws people have and showing the need to overcome these. Having the meta-world be real doesn’t change that this is a part of Umineko, rather it makes it that this growth actually happens. Things aren’t just left at the real world ‘fact’ that everyone in the family is a terrible person. This would be another reason I fight so strongly for this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Accepting fantasy as it is, Battler did almost twice (arc 2's end and arc 3's end). The first time Beatrice showed him a "nightmarish" results where she tortured Rosa just to "piss off Battler" enough to motivate him to strike back again. The second time she basically broke his entire trust of her to ensure that he would never be tricked into accepting it again.
Well I believe it’s a part of Beatrice’s character that she’s gotten too ‘used’ to this higher level. She’s lost touch with the human, emotional side of things. Beatrice pretty much believes she’s doing Rosa a favour in the Tea Party, but instead it shows her naivety towards human feelings. This itself is an interesting part of Beatrice’s character. I actually think this is a theme of sorts in the series, that human emotions and thoughts are important and should not be disregarded. Many times in the series you have people ‘fighting’ for them, and that they should be taken into account. This manifests in the whole ‘motive’ side of mystery that is brought up so much as well.

The second part is just a story detail, something like that Beatrice realized she didn’t want to win that way. But I don’t want to confuse things and get into plot details like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I do not think the series encourages us to believe in, at the very least, the delusions we are shown within arcs. If tragically dying before being able to tell your girlfriend that you love her is a "way to fulfill your love" (George arc 2) then I'd really rather not ever fulfill any love relationships.
But if you subscribe to the meta-world being real, why disregard the sequence of events? There is character development, and the different relationships are key examples of this. The whole point is that they couldn’t fulfill their love then, but by the later half of the series that became a possibility. It did happen. Looking at EP2 as an isolated example in this case doesn’t really make sense under this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To have a positive portrayal of delusions within Umineko, you have to be extremely selective in which delusions you chose to accept while discarding 95% of the rest, is how it feels to me.

So you end up with a theory that seems like "only the convenient delusions that leads to a happy ending are true" and that's... way too convenient, sorry.

So not only is a fantasy truth of the arcs even worst for the fate of the characters then the actual reality of them, but it makes that worseness repeat itself nearly endlessly.
I’m basically repeating myself by now, but I don’t believe I’m being selective at all. The meta-world doesn’t have to be all sugar and rainbows to be real. But the positives are all there, and the series does go to positive places if you believe the meta-world is real like this. If anything, it’s only really negative when you’re trying to apply a ‘real’ world perspective on the meta-world, which isn’t as applicable anymore. Death isn’t the ultimate end, and the characters have room for growth.

Again, I’m not trying to downplay the cruelty of what Beatrice did. I’m just trying to make my point. There is still much to be said about the despair, sadness and anger people feel when their family is killed. But that’s a different discussion from the higher level happenings.

I actually think it’s really interesting how Umineko has enough ‘depth’ that you basically need to zoom in and out your perspective on different things to talk about everything that happens. It’s almost impossible to have one conversation that’s taking everything into account all at once.

Something else that’s interesting is that believing all of this is real doesn’t need to interfere with the actual mystery at all. Rather, as EP3 describes, it can exist in parallel with the real world. In EP3, we can talk about the ‘real’ killer and the method, the red truth, et cetera, while simultaneously being able to discuss why EVA-Beatrice did what she did, her motives, et cetera. This is the beauty of how Ryuukishi has presented Umineko, and I feel like many people that don’t agree with me disregard these different sides. It feels like the whole meta-world side of the discussion is left at whether or not it is included within the fiction and left unexplored. I feel that that is a shame. If you open your mind to the possibility of the meta-world being real, there are many, many avenues of the story to explore. And I can’t think of anything that needs to be discarded, it can all be examined equally.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2011-03-07 at 00:32.
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