[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Solace

And did I not say just prior to that statement that any answer you get will probably not be satisfactory and full of pseudo science? I honestly don't know what he did with the Seed, or what he'll use it for, and neither do you. Both of us are speculating.

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with pseudo-science, or understand why any explanation involving it must be unsatisfactory. For a story to provide a pseudo-scientific attempt is probably better than to have no attempt at all.

You're trying to apply real life human understanding to a show that uses aliens and magic as a basis for the story. "A wizard did it", is as good an answer as any.

Not really. The explanations you and others are providing actually seem like much more involved and complicated stretches of 'real life human understanding' from my perspective. My explanation for the Grief Seed issue is very simple: they contain (emotional) energy. We know that Kyuubey wants that, so (maybe?) that's why he's collecting them.

He told you exactly what he desires in episode 9. He wants Magical Girls to turn into Witches, and specifically he wants the energy that occurs when they are at the height of emotion: the transformation into a Witch.

Could there also be some function for the Grief Seeds? Sure. But that isn't his primary goal.

As I've been telling you and Kazu-kun, unfortunately, there is no actual dialogue from Kyuubey which indicates what you are saying. Kyuubey does want energy, yes; but nowhere does he say he explicitly wants MGs to turn into witches. Energy is released during a MG -> witch transformation, true; but nowhere is it mentioned that it is that exact moment when Kyuubey collects that energy.

Here is an simple-to-understand suggestion for you and Kazu-kun: what if the energy from a MG to witch transformation is what transforms the Soul Gem into a Grief Seed? Would it not then be accurate to say that by collecting Grief Seeds, Kyuubey is collecting the energy from an MG to witch transformation?

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Now there are some interviews available where Gen reveals he didn't thought that much about some of his concepts. For example, he doesn't know for sure how Homura's time travel abilities work. Maybe a parallel world is created when the shield is activated, he said, but he doesn't really know.

He didn't say anything about the entropy crap specifically, but considering these comments, you can tell he most likely didn't think too much about how QB collects his energy, and so on.

Originally Posted by Akashin

I was actually referring to the lack of explanation for Homura's time travel and, more specifically, Kazu-kun's assertion that Urobuchi claimed not to fully understand its mechanics himself. Time travel doesn't need to be logical (in fact, trying to make it the least bit logical is likely to be a hopeless endeavor), but at least clarifying which time travel idea you're running with (ie. is Homura moving backwards along the same timeline or, like Kazu-kun said, is she creating parallel lines each time?) would be nice.

You know, it seems to me that Gen's actual reason for saying this might be to prevent people from reading too far into the time-travel aspect of the story. I think we all know very well here how attached some people can get to their speculations about a story. Time travel in particular is something which can inspire people to make up endless theories and predictions over. I think, by saying he hasn't thought too much about it, what Gen is really doing is gently letting those people know not to expect too much out of that part of the story. It's not so much that Gen himself has absolutely zero idea how the time travelling is supposed to work or has no intention in how it should be read in the story. Moreso him letting people know that the significant aspects of Homura's time travelling might only be what's immediately obvious--that Homura is stuck in a time loop; that her only way out of it is by protecting Madoka.

If I had to go with my gut, I'd say that the time travelling mechanism Gen actually believes in might well be simply the simplest--Homura going back and just waking up as part of the same timeline. The problem is, confirming even just this might make speculators jump to further, unsupportable conclusions, so it might be easier for Gen to just say he's got no idea as a method for managing expectations.

Along the same lines, I might be hesitant to use this comment to jump to similar conclusions that Gen is using the other 'entropy' concepts completely frivolously. Yes, he probably knows what entropy is; it's just not all that important to the story.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

BTW, according to him, the protagonist is Homura. I wonder how that fits with everyone's theories here.

This particular comment is new to me, but for my part, my theories rest on the idea that in the end, Madoka will be the main actor. Perhaps Homura can be the main protagonist in the sense that she will be the main 'viewpoint character'. I don't think Gen's point in that message necessarily forces us to assume anything, but yeah, let's wait and see.


As for these two quotes here:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

All of the above being said, I agree with what Kaijo just wrote above. Kyubey's entropy revelation throws quite a wrench into all this balance talk that Kyouko and Sayaka were getting on with. The reason being that Kyubey is getting quite the free lunch out of all of this. I don't see much balance there.

So if Gen was going for a theme involving the concept of balance, he muddied things up for himself with this entropy reveal, imo.

But then, I don't think Gen is aiming for a theme involving the concept of balance (except, perhaps, emotional balance).

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

However, when you get technologically advanced races like Kyubey involved, the scales start tipping. Heat death of the universe is, metaphorically speaking, complete energy balance. As the Wikipedia article on heat death states, "If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed." Kyubey is working against entropy, the natural balancing process of the universe. His method is to exploit the human race, which can defy entropy with emotional energy.

This suggests Kyubey's actions are quite unbalanced, at least where Madoka and her friends are concerned. Every time Kyubey grants a wish, the resulting happiness feels forced and artificial. In Kyoko's case, her wish was literally forced and her happiness was an illusion. Once the wisher realizes their wish has turned out differently than expected, genuine sadness emerges. Mami cheated death, so she seems happy on the outside; however, she was truly lonely and saddened deep inside. Similar to the idea of how material possessions cannot bring a person "true" happiness; we are only pretending to be happy with our stuff. Ultimately, the only real feelings in this show are despair and sadness. What seems like joy to characters is merely an artificial construct, brought about by twisted wishes.

These are some very interesting points you two are making, with regards to how Kyuubey represents in some ways an outlier and disrupter to the show's theme of universal balance. Both in terms of the unbalanced 'free lunch' he is getting out of the girls' suffering, and in terms of his goals of escaping entropy, you guys are correct in pointing out Kyuubey's position as being uniquely incongruent in terms of the greater morals of this story.

In this case, if we can posit the 'natural' balance as indeed the absolute moral behind this story, may I suggest the idea that this is perhaps precisely why Kyuubey is the villain? Although at this time we can see Kyuubey as being uniquely successful in doing so, isn't it in fact true however that the desire to get 'something for nothing', a 'free lunch' or 'more than you paid for' is something which is inherently part of all humans? Indeed, while Kyuubey might be trying to achieve something which is against the true course of nature, that ambition can also be said to be reflected in each of the wishes these girls have traded their souls for.

In this case, by sympathizing with these characters who have been harmed by Kyuubey's self-interest, perhaps the role of Kyuubey who succeeds in that act is precisely to make us reflect on the cost inherent in our own actions. Victims of Kyuubey's quest to deny nature, we come to understand the pain that would be caused by seeking to deny nature ourselves. In this way, Kyuubey as the antithetical alien interloper becomes ultimately only a mirror to our own humanity. Kyuubey, by striving to escape the cost and reward, gain and sacrifice nature of our reality, finally only proves how he is chained to it in how he becomes directly involved in our human suffering.

(lol, okay, I don't even know what I really want to say here so that will be the end of my random rambling.)