[LoveMeKags]

Shall save space again.

Spoiler for to magnus:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You do realize that this was a one-in-million find? They were just randomly scrolling through reports on the 117th fleet when they chanced upon the photo of Grace with Mao and Ranshe, just when Sheryl chanced upon them. In other words, it was for plot convenience.

Actually, they had to give up the search because Sheryl appeared like that. Had she been perfectly fine, I'm sure they would've kept going. It is obvious that there was information about 117 because she read back a lot of what it's existence was for.

So there was information.

But, albeit, the one place that Alto could've gotten helpful information (the one time he actually bothered to research) was on Galia 4 inside Macross Global. His line was "the data has been erased recently." It's obviously a setup. I mean, isn't that kinda suspicious for an abandoned Macross? But he jumps right on the ball and waves it off as a convenience due to the situation. Notice that he never mentions that to anyone either. Nor does he bring it up again.

Odd, don't you think, that the main character has less of a brain than the side characters?

Agreed. But in a way, it was realistic in the depiction that even our heroes didn't know everything which was going on, even after the end of the series.

OTOH, better sharing of information would have resolved a lot of conflicts much sooner... at times it is difficult to separate the real human behaviour from what is plot convenient for the writers.

Agreed.

And sometimes, I wonder if the characters are really there when all this weird stuff goes on. The way they react to things, I'm going "you realize he just showed up out of nowhere, right? And he tried to kill you. How about researching some ID?" At least if characters had grown suspicious of Galaxy after Brera showed up later (after trying to kill them once or twice), then I could say this was a bit realistic, but they didn't. So I have to say that this Macross kinda had plotholes that way. I think the movies fixed that.

Ozma and Cathy weren't really thoroughly investigating Brera and Grace, they were after Leons conspiracy. And that was something the rest of the characters outside of the SMS leadership had no idea of.

But Mishima was attached to Galaxy. Therefore attached to Brera and Grace. But regardless, they were researching the plot's enemy, which was Galaxy. And therefore, my point stands.

Furthermore, we were explicitly told that Leon was suppressing any information about Brera and his fighter. We could reasonably infer that maybe the characters were looking at that, but they met a dead end, due to Leons information suppression campaign.

All governments do that. But there is also someone who will leak information out to the public. There is always some way to get it. Unless Mishima suddenly made sure all Internet servers had no information no matter what they put in Goggle.

All in all, it remains that Alto did not have the access channels to get any real information. And, yeah, I will readily admit that he wasn't really interested in investigating it, either.

And that's where his character really falls and his movie persona picks it up. That's why I say I can't like one or the other honestly, because both have flaws in ways that make me cringe. I say "blend 'em, mix 'em up, and serve 'em cold." So I would say if they could actually blend his series persona with his movie persona, then it would be complete win.

If we go by the standard that everybody could have done more research, Grace taking over Rankas managment ( and wasn't that a kick in the nuts to poor Elmo Kridanik? Why didn't at least Ozma talk to him? ) should have been a prime area of interest for Rankas friends and family. Instead everybody just shrugged their shoulders and ignored it.

I didn't say I blamed Alto only, just that he was the most obvious one for not doing research. And poor Luca was even investigating in both universes: in the series with his crush in a coma and in the movie where he nearly died.

BTW, poor, poor Elmo. Yes, I thought that part was a bit funny but Elmo got to pick up as Sheryl's manager. He got to manage the Sheryl Nome. That made him happy. Though, I think he was generally concerned about Ranka. I hate to say it but I do believe that Ranka and Elmo had a nice relationship as manager to singer. Nothing like Grace to Sheryl but nonetheless, when Ranka left, he was worried about her.

Oh, she was reinstalled in a new body. But her official story about how she survived Gallia IV was that she was rescued by Brera, as we were told in the hospital scene with Sheryl.

But it was still funny that everyone bought it but the main cast was kinda going WTF for a moment, then just went along with it and never thought a bit about it.

You talk as if he had that choice. He is a mercenary fighter pilot with no official standing on Frontier, besides being a citizen. And as we have seen numerous times in the series, not exactly very proficient at hand-to-hand combat, so it is not as if he could have fought off those two government agents.

But he still didn't question it. And another example is that he didn't question why he was summoned by Bilrer either. Suddenly two people, a pilot with no real rank in society, and a songstress whom just started out, are summoned by government officials? It is very strange, especially since one was just nearly kidnapped and the other risked everyone's lives to rescue her before they nuked her.

I know I would be suspicious if I was in their shoes.

However, Ozma was suspicious when he learned Alto was summoned by Bilrer.

Uh, mostly because Leon had tried to kill her?

I was referring to other characters besides Mishima. None of them had been aware that Mishima had tried to kill her and I doubt he'd publicly release that information through the TV.

So that holds my point: a plot hole: Grace suddenly disappears and no one questions it, not even Sheryl.

Anyway, I already said above that I think that the series really underplays the characters reactions to strange stuff happening in their sphere of perception. Brera being rehabilitated instantly from attacking SMS planes and Rankas changing of managers are two of the most clear examples of situations where logically people should have investigated more thoroughly what was going on. But as I still see that as a widespread phenomenon between all cast members ( outside of the mostly very well informed villains ), I can't particularly blame Alto for his incuriousity.

I think that's why a lot of people review the series in saying it's a stupid show but the action is amazing. Because of the downplay of the characters reactions of important information or otherwise weird things happening in their universe, the audience becomes frustrated because they know what's happening and the characters don't, even when it's right in front of their (the characters') eyes. It used to frustrate me.

I don't think a Macross series has ever been so frustrating in that sense.

But I will admit that he seems to be one of the least investigative persons in the cast.

Agreed.

It's very irresponsible to keep that information to yourself, just because you want time to figure it out. If the situation were not so dire, with pilots and civilians dying all the time due to Vajra attacks, I'd be more forgiving of such an attitude.

While I agree with that, I still doubt she knew quite how to explain the visions either. It's not like it all came back in one lump. We saw what she saw: flashes of the past. So I doubt she had a way to give useful information.

What happened in episode fourteen with the queen is vital information and could have helped end the war much, much sooner if she had gone forward with revealing it.

With the Queen, I'd have to agree. That was vital information on the inner works of the Vajra. However, the vision of her mother and Aimo would instantly connect her to the Vajra and thus bring me back to saying that she'd be executed for having a connection to the enemy, just like Sheryl was to be in the movie.

I think I'll stay with my interpretation of why she didn't speak up, which is that her disasociative amnesia struck again. If you go to the end of episode 14, you can see her crying, Brera asking her about it and her responding that she doesn't know. Also, her vision of her mother ( which is what the Vajra queen was showing her, after all ) never came up again in the series, so I think it makes for the best explanation.

And I'll say again that she probably doesn't understand the visions herself.

As for the vision of her mother, she doesn't remember it because it's not a real piece of her past, therefore it never comes up again. Instead, she remembers her mother in the real vision telling her exactly what her mother in the fake one said about the true purpose behind Aimo. If you need to rehash that, go back to 14, watch that scene, then skip to 25 where Ranka is asked what Aimo is for. The Queen merely relayed a scene from the past in a different setting.

Michaels death is about the only point in the series which makes the movies look better. Although he had a very powerful death scene.

Sheryl doesn't pull it off so well... she's a stick figure in that scene. But still, her tears pretty much are like Michael's "I love you" piece.

I rather think he is talking about reports of other fleets meeting with the Vajra. The 117ths destruction alone should make it clear that people knew about the Vajra and were prepared to deal with them.

But still, they knew about the Vajra, which thus supports my idea that they attacked first because they knew what happened to the other fleets.

Well, it isn't impossible, but I think the weight of evidence so far supports my view.

Could I ask for evidence or screenshots? Because I really doubt that. The jamming signal proves my evidence a bit more that there's no actual show of attack or not, so both theories work.

I will admit that he sucked at saying "I love you", but apparently that is true of all male Macross protagonists.

/slaps Hikaru/

I'm aware.

And I personally think that you deeply misread that scene, but I also don't think that trying to convince you otherwise will do much good.

Sheryl made it very clear that she believed Alto was with her out of pity. Had 22 been different, then perhaps that wouldn't have been even conveyed, even mentioned. Nor would Sheryl feel like Alto's burden. If you love someone and that love is reciprocated, then why should you feel guilty or like a burden to that person even in your darkest hour? You should embrace the time that's left.

That's why I say the scene makes her think he is only with her out of pity.

It's her interpretation. Remember for a moment that only we know what Alto is thinking or doing outside of being around her. Only we know what his true intentions are. So we have to take a step into her shoes and situation and try and understand her thoughts on Alto's feelings when she cannot access them.

It'd be much more interesting to see how their relationship would progress without the burden of Sheryls terminal illness and the Vajra war being upon them both, but alas...

I'd like to see Sheryl mellow down and become a nicer (up close) person. By that, I mean lose a bit of her dere personality around others. I think I'll bring up the school episodes here as an example. If she could drop that "cool girl" act, I'm sure I'd like her more.

That lack of communication is endemic to most character relationships in the series. A lot of it is of course writer fiat... otherwise the last bits of tension of the triangle would have deflated completely in episode 22 already.

I agree on the writer bit... though we'll always be in disagreement about the triangle's ending in the series.

But I don't think that the Galaxy conspirators are going around, posting "We are gonna kriff up Frontier for the evulz, xoxoxo! Oh, and galactic domination, too" on Macross Twitter.

You know, the hilarious part is... there is a Macross Twitter.

I wonder if they should put that in the next series for Macross. Because that would be hilarious!

Exactly. So, making predictions for how any future romance will end is not viable.

We agree completely.