[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My response to Shadow5YA is in Spoiler Space below. Don't read it if you don't want to be spoiled on the manga and/or the anime.

Spoiler for manga and anime spoilers:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When did Mami push away Homura in the anime? If anything, Mami tried to make amends with Homura in spite of how Homura had attempted to kill Kyubey. Mami obviously made an olive branch offer to Homura in Episode 2. Homura rejected it, so Mami stopped trying to make up with her.

No. Mami offered her a Grief Seed and attached the loaded statement, "Or are you the type that hates sharing with others?"

Homura refused, stating that she doesn't need it. Mami killed it, therefore she should reap the rewards. Considering Homura's primary objective, she meant what she said - nothing more, nothing less.

Mami is the one took Homura's response to mean she follows the same "every man for himself" ideology that Kyouko followed.


The following episode, Homura tried warning Mami about Charlotte. Mami responded by binding Homura with her ribbon magic. As we all know, going solo against Charlotte is what cost Mami her life.
The foolish part in this case isn't that Mami distrusted Homura (since Homura did little to help her image by keeping to herself all the time) but the fact that Mami felt the need to disable Homura entirely. Why go so far?
The only thing Mami had to lose by letting Homura go was the potential threat of her taking the Grief Seed. Unlike Kyouko, that shouldn't be a major issue to Mami since she is willing to share. Otherwise, Mami had everything to gain by letting Homura help out. Charlotte appeared on school grounds, meaning the sooner they take out the Witch, the less likely Madoka, Sayaka, and any other students would get harmed in the process. Mami was being reckless for the sake of her reliable senpai image and paid dearly for it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

From Kyouko's perspective, there was a Grief Seed to gain from it. The Grief Seed that would come from the escaped familiar that would later become a witch if the familiar was left alone. That familiar being the one that Sayaka had just been trying to eliminate, and still wanted to eliminate.

From Sayaka's perspective, there was people to protect here. The people that the familiar could conceivably victimize if the familiar wasn't eliminated.

That's a fair point... only for their first confrontation. In the following episode, Kyouko provokes Sayaka into another fight on a bridge before Madoka stops it by tossing out Sayaka's Soul Gem. There was no Grief Seed to gain or people to protect in this case. They weren't chasing or monitoring a Witch or familiar.

It was a pure grudge match based on ideals because Sayaka couldn't stand to see Kyouko spit on her ideals, and Kyouko couldn't stand to see another person who was as naïve as she used to be.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyouko and Sayaka both had easily understandable and acceptable reasons for their conflict. It made perfect sense for them to come to a severe disagreement and blows.

There was no such good reasons for Sayaka to want to end her partnership with Mami.

That's definitely not the impression I had. But even if you're right, there's no sensible buildup to this. We don't see Sayaka and Mami arguing a lot. We don't see them in some sort of dispute over what it means to be a good Puella Magi. In fact, the two seemed to be getting along great together.

That's definitely not the impression I had. But even if you're right, there's no sensible buildup to this. We don't see Sayaka and Mami arguing a lot. We don't see them in some sort of dispute over what it means to be a good Puella Magi. In fact, the two seemed to be getting along great together.

A witch possessed Hitomi. Sayaka hesitated to the point of not participating in the fight at all. As the Witch attacked, Mami covered for Sayaka, sustaining severe injuries. Combined with Kyouko's taunting, it should be easy to see why Sayaka felt she was a liability to Mami.

Later, Sayaka also confesses that she knew full well that the Witch possessed Hitomi and did nothing because a part of her wanted to see Hitomi die since in this manga, Hitomi told Sayaka about her plans to confess to Kyousuke already.

Like before her transformation to a Witch in the anime, Sayaka knew she was a hypocrite. From her perspective, she was as bad as she believed Kyouko to be.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka pushed Madoka away in the anime because Madoka was basically telling Sayaka how to do her job. And most people don't like being told how to do their job by people who aren't their boss or co-worker. This is especially true when you're being told how to do your job by someone who was offered the same job as you have, but refused to take it. It should not be hard to see how this can be very infuriating.

Sayaka was actively refusing to use Grief Seeds to cleanse her Soul Gem, even if those Grief Seeds are ones she fought and earned herself.

Madoka wasn't even lecturing Sayaka about her ideals or how to fight. She was telling Sayaka to stay healthy. It shouldn't be hard to see why Madoka was worried to death after Sayaka comes back from the Elsa Maria fight without any regard to the damage done to her body.
It's like a supermodel falling out of stardom because she developed anorexia, and her normal friends and family tell her to eat. Taking "it's your fault!" or "you don't know what I've been through!" is not an acceptable answer.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Where did Sayaka get angry with Mami?

This isn't just a basic friendship relationship. This is two people who have a shared responsibility together. And these two people both care about that shared responsibility. So it's just common sense to make choices that will help you both fulfill that responsibility.

It's not a shared responsibility and it never was a shared responsibility. They are all characters with their own goals and motives. While Mami and Sayaka's ideal's are similar, they are not the same. Mami wants companionship while Sayaka wants "justice".

However, Sayaka's notion of justice is so idealized and fragile that she can't even live up to her own standards. That's why she calls herself a fool in the anime, and why leaving Hitomi to die in this manga eats at her from the inside out.
In an unfair world, she is too fragile.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Again, I totally didn't get that vibe in Sayaka/Mami's relationship in this manga. Not at all. Not from either side.

You misunderstand. It was an example of a reason that is entirely human, but not necessarily rational. See below.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree. I think you underestimate how rational Sayaka was in the source material. I can easily understand and explain everything she did in the source material. I definitely can't say the same of her actions in this manga.

Explaining and understanding human actions does not necessarily make those reasons "rational". We humans may have the capacity for rational thought, but that does not mean the reason behind every action was in fact formulated rationally. For example, an smoker with lung cancer can have another cigarette, and we can explain the reason behind the person's actions as an addiction. That however does not mean the person was thinking properly with the goal of benefit in mind.
Because of human nature, to understand humans (or characters with an equivalent human nature) means acknowledging that sometimes they are not of sound mind.

I can understand and explain most things in either medium. This does not necessarily mean I agree or even accept the reasons.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She pushed Madoka away because she was pissed off with Madoka, and for understandable reason. I didn't see any reason for Sayaka to be pissed off with Mami in this manga. None at all.

She can be pissed at herself, and then that self-loathing and frustration can spread to everyone else. That does tend to happen.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Part of my argument is that there was no good reason for Sayaka's self-esteem to be that low to begin with. As I argued before, this manga flanderized her in this regard.

I think feeling guilty and nearly responsible for an innocent person's death is a fair reason. I don't think it justifies exacerbating it with even more negativity, but it's natural for some people to feel that way.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. It's reasonable for Sayaka to want to wait until Kyousuke is at least out of the hospital before confessing to him. But the very same night he leaves the hospital, she finds out about one of the hidden truths of Soul Gems, which made her feel like a zombie. "I'm no longer a human, so I can't confess to a human" makes some sense to me, though I admit it's overplayed in anime.

Here in this manga, Sayaka didn't have these factors to deal with. And the manga even gave her the perfect opportunity to confess to Kyousuke.

In this manga, Sayaka had to deal with the guilt of nearly leaving a friend to die over love.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Unrequited love often makes people do self-destructive things. It's a big deal to an old-fashioned romantic like Sayaka.

Mami and Kyouko certainly endured greater personal tragedy, but it doesn't seem like they had the same unrequited love issues.

Kyouko had unrequited love. She made her wish for the father she loved so dearly, and in response, not only did he hate her, he tried killing everyone in the family over it. Are you really disregarding this just because it's familial love and not adolescent love?
Homura also had to deal with the "no longer human" issue. You should understand why it's harder to sympathize with Sayaka when other characters dealt with similar issues more constructively.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It does make it odd to come rushing to their aid though.

Kyouko does not hate Mami or Sayaka. She hates the ideals they hold that already betrayed her once. She hates her old self for being foolishly naïve, and she sees that old self in Sayaka. This is why she picks on them, and why when push comes to shove, she wants to save them in the end.

Even if Kyouko wants to abandon her old ideals, she never could entirely. As I stated before, she is at odds with herself, and it takes Madoka's encouragement before she returns to her true self.