[GundamFan0083]

Just got back from a party, so if this post seems like a Rum-drinking tipsy person (who has had quite a few shooters tonight) wrote it, you know now why.

Originally Posted by Xander

Keep in mind that I don't even personally agree with Lelouch's rationale and would have never chosen Zero Requiem as the outcome I originally expected for the series, but in terms of analysis...I respect your opinion, but in the end, all of this relies on employing only one of several perspectives for character interpretation and, more to the point, making subjective moral judgments.

I also respect your analysis Xander, and your insight into other angles that I often do not see.

However, we have discussed this subject at length on this forum, so as you said, there is no need to beat this horse to death.

I try to view Code Geass from a writer/author's viewpoint and attempt to not make the mistakes I see in R2 in my own writing.
Especially with the handling of main character types such as Lelouch and CC.

What you may see as Lelouch running away can also be seen as his finally deciding to give up something in exchange for all his various sins and immoral activities, instead of being allowed to simply apologize and escape punishment. Of course, whether or not the idea of suicide qualifies as "running away" rather than being an "honorable way out" is also not an objective matter (although I, quite naturally, don't hold any favorable views towards that subject in real life, at least as a general concept).

I base my opinion on how the character is introduced, and develops through a story.
If a character changes abruptly and without any real explanation, then I see this as a serious flaw in the writing of the story.
Perhaps Okouchi and Taniguichi meant for Lelouch to act the way he did in the Zero Requiem from the begining of the whole series, but the fact is there was not the character or plot development needed written into R2 to justify the abrupt change in Lelouch's mindset.
Thus his actions in episodes 23-25 seemed forced, and quite frankly wooden/contrived.
We as viewers should have expected Lelouch to conduct Zero Requiem, the finale should have been the logical choice, and it was not under the circumstances.
Lelouch had won all that he needed to, there was no requirement for him to die in the manner he did and thus the story's conclusion becomes unbelievable and vapid.
It's denuoement totally deflated of any redeeming quality.

You could easily turn any of the above statements around to view the resulting situation from a different lens. For instance, Suzaku was not a blameless party in all this and his own desire for self-punishment predated his last alliance with Lelouch. In any event, he was not a victim who ended up being uniterally abused by his best friend. I do think he's less criminally responsible than Lelouch, comparatively speaking, even with respect to FLEIJA...but that's not exactly saying much.

Here we are in total agreement.

Ah, but Lelouch wasn't exactly the same person as R2 went on, or was he? Life, bad luck, poor decisions and plot twists sure did their best to break him.

He was broken from the first episode and made this clear in S1 when he tells CC that his only reason for living was to destroy Britannia.
If anything, we see him develop numerous other reasons for choosing a different path than what he started from, especially with regard to C.C..
His promise to her alone should have been enough for him to choose a different path considering how he let both Shirley and Rolo down during R2.

If the viewer were to be cynical enough, for the sake of argument, then even C.C. herself could be judged a lot more harshly than that because she spent nearly the entire series using Lelouch just as much as he used her. In that sense, she cannot be considered as much of a victim either. C.C.'s behavior had its own particularly selfish streak.

I never considered her a victim from what we are told.
In fact, the story puts forward the idea that Lelouch is in fact redeeming her through his commitment to succeed and his caring for the world and the people in it.
If anything, Lelouch made C.C. care again which is why in ep. 25 she is surprised at herself for even caring whether she wins or looses against Kallen in KMF combat.

Her betrayal of Charles and Marianne was mostly passive and entirely depended on Lelouch's final rejection of their plan. Even her eventual hesitation when Charles tried to take away her Code was based on the fact that Lelouch realized her true wish wasn't death, but what did C.C. do afterwards? Run away into the World of C and let Lelouch suffer from her absence (interacting with her original personality in the meanwhile wasn't the worst possible fate, but for all practical purposes that wasn't really C.C. as Lelouch knew her either).

Again, I see this situation (C.C. running away) as a really bad decision on the part of the writer and director.
It was clearly meant as a plot device to bring Marianne (via Anya) into the picture and give a reason for her introduction (to revive C.C.'s memory).
It was B-flick grade bad and they really should have thought of anohter way to do this. The situation was a Deus et Machina of the worst sort.

Prior to that moment, the most she had done was to run away after Marianne's physical death, but still kept in contact with her and was simply looking for another contractor rather than trying to prevent the Ragnarok Connection. In short, C.C. was not actively working against them and kept far too many secrets from Lelouch that could have aided him in his struggle.

Clearly C.C. was manipulating him at first, but it would seem that somewhere along the way in S1 or R2 that she changed her mind towards Lelouch.
We get a hint at this in her conversations with Marianne when she reassures Marianne she "doesn't feel that way about him [Lelouch]."
When clearly C.C. is simply lying to herself about the blossoming love she has for Lelouch.

In all honesty, I would also argue that the above description is incomplete and, naturally enough, a bit too cynical for my liking...but then we come back to the original point of this entire discussion: what would be necessary in order to fulfill C.C.'s wish and make her smile? To put it simply, the most important requirement would be for Lelouch to understand and actually love her.

Agreed, the only requirement would be the love, however, would Lelouch leave her behind?
I don't think Okouchi and Taniguichi laid enough foundation for that in R2.
Perhaps they were unable to, but I just do not see the foundation for Lelouch's death as say in Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, or even a literary work such as Le Morte D'Arthur.
The idea of Lelouch choosing to kill all kinds of people to erase Euphie's SAZ massacre doesn't ring true, so the whole Zero Requiem falls flat.
Clovis and Cornelia had killed more people in both Saitima and Shinjiku ghettos.
Charles killed far more...period.
Suzaku and Schneizel killed more via FLEIJA, and Nina was responsible for the creation of the weapon that did both.
In comparison, Lelouch really wasn't that bad.
Maybe the writer and director should have thought about this before they had the other characters commit attrocities that made Lelouch's actions look petty in comparison?

Which, quite frankly, it appears he already did by the time Zero Requiem came around. The most evident sign of this is Lelouch's final on-screen conversation with C.C., where he revealed that he didn't hate her for giving him Geass. From a cynical perspective, he would have been more than justified for hating her, after everything that had happened as a result of this, but that wasn't Lelouch's reaction. In fact, they almost hugged/kissed before their unfortunate interruption. If that's not implying Lelouch already understands and loves her, then I don't know what it is.

Yes, Kallen's cockblocking was another point of irritation.
A real kiss for C.C., with Lelouch would have been nice of Okouchi and Taniguichi.
Or even a kiss goodbye between them.

However, then comes what has been interpreted as a problematic point: C.C. stops Kallen and reminds him to come back to "make her smile"...but, considering both her and his respective teasing-oriented personalities and past interactions along equivalent lines, should we really take that bit of wordplay too literally? I think not. If anything, it can be interpreted as an indirect way for C.C. to tell Lelouch that she also cares about him and clearly doesn't want him to fall in the ongoing battle, as presented through a rather typical expression: "you still have to do this and that, so you better not die out there."

Or, if you want to put it another way, C.C. already knows he will soon die during Zero Requiem but still wants Lelouch to come back and spend more time with her.

I agree, that is one possibility.
However, the quality of the writing is what I question.
If this was the intention, then it should have been made clear.

And, you know what? He did return. If that is the case, regardless of the specific interpretation involved, it cannot be denied that Lelouch still had the opportunity to "make her smile" during the post-Damocles time skip, even if you believe he wasn't doing that already. I'm not a fan of using too many time skips, but then again...did we really need to see another scene between C.C. and Lelouch in order to confirm this?

I think everyone agrees with you here Xander.
The time-skips were very badly done, and it begs the question as to what actually happened during them.
We probably will never know, but without the information, we as viewers are left "holding the bag" as it were.

Ironically, I'd say this debate has made me ultimately reach the opposite conclusion, not so much because of R2 itself but in terms of what I can accept from fiction in general. In other words, I've come to understand and appreciate ambiguity more than I did previously, even in a few cases where it has been popularly or critically controversial. Not to the point of total abstraction, I would note, but when there are at least a few hints and indications left. Even R2 had some.

You are certainly unique in your perspection on ambiguity.
Speaking from experience I will tell you that many people despise it for some reason.
It's the major complaint I get about how vague the info on my alien races are in my own fiction.
I agree with my fans/critics on this point. Unless the writer/author is intending on continuing the story and thus filling in the blanks later, the level of ambiguity must be kept to a minimum least you risk confusing/boring your intended audience.
Code Geass being an anime, it would have been best if they had explained more, and not tried to be so David Lynchian with many aspects of the story.

I would argue that's because Code Geass was not trying to be much of a "science fiction story" in the first place. The focus of the direction and writing was always on the character(s), not on the surrounding setting or its technology. For example, Gundam 00 had a better written overall story, with a stronger focus on a couple of science fiction-oriented issues at its core, but I didn't find most of the character drama to be that interesting or engaging in comparison, even leaving aside a few outright disappointments. There may be less holes, but in my case there was also less investment.

I suppose this is a probability, however, it was billed as sci-fi originally in Newtype.
Perhaps this was more a deficiency on the part of Newtype magazine then on Sunrise.
Gundam 00 was one hell of a story.
I have disdain for SF that is burdened with too much drama/romance. It should be kept to a minimum, while technical details and/or background data on races, tech, and powers should be fleshed out as much as possible.

But then again...while I would never think of directly comparing Code Geass to Mobile Suit Gundam, Space Battleship Yamato or Macross in terms of lasting impact and influence, all of those important works had moments of sloppy or cheesy writing that wouldn't be out of place in a proper B-flick, now that you bring up the term, though this doesn't detract too much from their historical value (at least in my opinion). Even so, for better or for worse, I see nothing wrong with enjoying works that are more flawed yet still more interesting than the average. Like, say, Code Geass.

You would be drawn-and-quartered by mouth-frothing Otaku of Gundam, SBY, and Macross if you did.

Personally, I have far more problems with what came before the ending. If anything, I'd say it ultimately did more to salvage rather than ruin my opinion of the series.

In this we differ, but to each his own.