[Haak]

Spoiler for Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Indeed, in Seed, the EA had something to gain from the invasion, they also have something to gain in Destiny by simply waving the threat of invasion in Orbs face, Orb has a military, albeit small, its powerful, the M1 line and Murasame line are pretty powerful for grunts.

Since Orb got a taste of how the EA acted in SEED, of course they would think twice instead of flat out saying no, you don't want to repeat history, better safe than sorry, to put it short.

The decision that was made wasnt about pride, but rather survival of the country (or the seirans).

Except this completely ignores the point I've raised about EA learning that it's futile to attack Orb again since they know they'll get nothing from it. And Orb should recognise that too.

Indeed, wild conclusions that you base your opinions on.

So you do have a problem then...

Or have you just forgotten what we were talking about?

My supposed "wild conclusion" is that what Orb did was out of character which you agreed wasn't actually that wild at all.

Yes, Athrun was put in command because he didn't act on his emotions.

No, once again, you are assuming that Athruns squad=The entire Zaft army, he was reasoning with his forces at hand, not the entire Zaft army.

The Creuset/Creuzet squad was enough for the stealth/diversion/attack on Heliopolis with severe tactical advantage, doing the same with less manpower, no diversions would be reckless, not to mention suicidal, Athrun knew this, that's why he shot the idea down before it was brought up.

No he wasn't. I've already explained this: Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.

Country was burned to the ground
Change in leadership
???
Cagalli suddenly had no political power/Profit? for Seirans.

And honestly, Orb acting the way it did after what happened in the earlier episodes of Destiny and in SEED, the way it acted in Destiny does make sense. Atleast more sense than some other parts of the show.

And we've already been through this too. If you don't have anything else to add and you're just talking about your own opinion then fine but don't expect me to believe there's much credibility behind it.

Spoiler for monster:

Originally Posted by monster

They won't be able to try because there's a worldwide ban on NJC and Cagalli won't allow it. Orb is not going to paint itself as a potential aggressor by trying to acquire NJC.

There was no world wide ban on NJCs. The ban was on NJs.

That still has nothing to do with nuclear weapons.

My point that Cagalli isn't idealistic enough to think a treaty on nuclear weapons should work alone has nothing to do with nuclear weapons?

So did ZAFT. So it's a moot point.

No, ZAFT clearly wasn't trying to form an alliance with the EA after the first nuclear attack.

Boaz was the only time the EA was successful at a nuclear strike after they had decided to annihilate the PLANTs. So it's not inconsistent for them to follow that success with a second attack, thus, no plot hole.

Junius 7 attack was to cripple the PLANTs while, in Destiny, they were not successful.

I just spent a good 10 minutes trying to work out what you're taking about but I just gave up because this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I can only ask for you to rephrase that.

My point is that the only reason ZAFT found the second nuclear attack a surprise is because of plot hole writing, something you clearly admitted yourself. Now it seems you're talking about something else entirely.

It doesn't have to be completely foolproof, it just has to be effective enough for the EA to decide on another method of destroying the PLANTs.

But one demonstration is never enough to prove that something is effective to decide on another method, especially one as risky, time consuming and as costly as their stupid giant death beam crap.

It's no different than GENESIS. Again, these types of weapons are not uncommon in the Gundam franchise.

And like i said: A consistent plot hole is still a plot hole..

They don't need to resort to such measures on Earth. The nuclear weapons and Requiem are for the PLANTs themselves, straight at the heart of ZAFT.

They clearly did.

We don't have the assurances that it will stay that way. The cost vs benefit can change. In SEED, Orb wasn't worth attacking until the EA found itself needing a way to get supplies to space quickly. As for perspectives changing, that also includes Orb, which is why they now joined the EA.

And like I said, none of those above factors should be a factor this time. From anyone's perspective EA should've learned that they won't get anything out of Orb even if they need it and Orb should not adopt such an 180 degree reversal of perspective because it would simply be out of character.

It was shown when Yuna talked to Cagalli about seeing Orb burned again. That's a clear sign that the danger of SEED's EA is still present with Destiny's EA. So you can't call it out of character when they're making the decision based on their experience and the current state of the world.

Just because Yuna talks about how belligerent EA are now doesn't mean EA have been belligerent to Orb throughout those two years you say Orb has supposedly had to endure.

Orb has no control over the EA's perspective or whether or not they have a reason to attack Orb.

Though it's still what their perspective on EA would be.

It's still about power levels. Athrun didn't want to attack without proof because of Orb's military strength. But with proof, he could justify an attack to the ZAFT leaders.

So it isn't all about power levels...