[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

They may not be "fried food", so the more experienced people still have a chance.

They will only have a chance if the infilitrator is weak. Yet, if they are so weak, it seems unlikely they can create a barrier that won't quickly go down under the might of a team of Aces.

Not to say it's not a bad idea, but I would agree with them that it's not important enough to animate.

Normally, had they not busted the line enough people actually start auditing, that's fine. But when the audit starts...

It doesn't cast fast enough. Ten shots, wait, ten shots, repeat.

During which others shoot. Teamwork.

I think I see the problem, you keep thinking of the energy flow as a percentage, what if it's a set number instead? It could be a tiny fraction of Fate's S-rank output, but a larger percentage of her AA-rank output, yet not enough to impact her performance.

I will have to admit that would solve that problem, but a set number would imply a paower regulator on the supply magic itself. So we are now trading off possible complexity on the limiter system for definite complexity on the familiar system. Plus your system will STILL deny the TSAB the advantages. Given how they need mages...

Did you miss the part where she mentioned that she was a (Master) Sargeant in the 108th Battalion? It's in ep10.

Wasn't she only a Sergeant? Anyway, a sergeant isn't what one thinks when he thinks "officer".

She doesn't need direct help that much these days. And those do beat sitting around waiting for something that may not happen (even though it in fact did).

Sure, her adopted daughter gets kidnapped and Fate gets to face off two enemies that are more or less in her class. Uh... she doesn't need help? Are you sure?

There don't appear to be that many of those that are using limiters. Of that small number, it seems that only Fate has a familiar. So I doubt it's worth the effort to create an exception.

Why is it not the standard?

You're treating the Linker Core like it's a physical object with a port labeled "Familiar Output Channel" then the clamp the limiter elsewhere. You know that isn't the case!

I meant that allegorically.

If you insist on dissecting the scenes that way, do note that Fate and Nanoha engage the drones in ep11 at 11:30, the scene then switches around a bit, finally Fate decides she needs to release her limiter at 15:00. Less than 5 minutes, but that fits what you asked for. There's also several opportunities for timejumps, so there's a possibility that there's more than 4:30 minutes of realtime between scenes 1 and 3 here.

Possibility needs to be made clear here

Too late. Do you think everyone can instantly teleport to the field once the evac alarm sounds? It'll take a minute or 2 to run outside the building, then another minute or 2 to reach the field, at least 20 seconds to climb down the stairs and 10 more seconds to run into the field. Since they won't all be in a bunch and not all of them are as fit as the combat teams, the flow of people will last way more than that 4:30 minutes. Otto, Deed and the drones will certainly have arrived by then and started shooting. Now, Shamal and Zafira may have been able to hold the base for 10 minutes and keep everyone inside safe the whole time, but they can't possibly defend the length of that column for anywhere near as long.

Might have a point there. But what are these people, civvies? Assemble them in a cluster, and run for the field in a group. This should make this convoy easier to cover - in fact, it might be less coverage than defending the building. Remember that Otto and Deed didn't even come out until the defenders were heavily attrited. Get Shamal to cover them as they sprint for the field, and there's every chance everyone would get there in one piece.

Could be quite a bit. Is it the the "ground level" of the abandoned city scenario, or the deepest basement in it? Losing power would be a bad time to find out, don't you think? Even if it's the former, they can't hide out in the open. And the buildings' ground floor may not be on the surface level either. A bit higher is survivable, but if it's lower instead...

How about choosing a sim scenario without a "basement"?

Where in ep18? I can't seem to find it. The closest I can find is the pre-op where Hayate says HQ was paralyzed in minutes, not destroyed.

The attack on the HQ occurred near simultaneously with the attack on the RF6 HQ. And of course GF HQ wasn't destroyed.

Considering the sophistication of the field as it is, the outlay to turn it into a fully integrated part of the base's defenses might have been beyond RF6's budget. They aren't swimming in funds you know.

THey were swimming enough in funds to have the field.

And I realised there's another problem with using the field. Now the Borg may have been too stupid to simply turn off the holodeck before entering, but I think Otto and Deed can figure that one out easily enough. The controls are accessible from outside the field. If they need to, they'll hold off on leveling the base until they deactivate the field. Wouldn't take too long with the inside information Jail has.

How about implementing basic security measures to prevent Otto and Deed from just pushing OFF? Limited time doesn't only work against my security ideas, it works against the enemy's actions to disable them too.

And first I'm not supposed to let them be prescient, and now they'll know Jail has inside information and plan on that basis? And how much inside information would Jail have on RF6 anyway - the members are specially picked, and not allied to Jail's nominal buddies Regius & HC, so getting agent intelligence seems a bit thin.

And a realistic simulation of run-down styrofoam-built building is? You're the one who insists Mid's building materials are crap, remember? It's supposed to be a simulation of reality, why should it be any harder to destroy than the real thing?

I didn't say it is. Remember that my concept is mostly to use the sheer size of the field to create effective concealment. I know Otto can blast through the stuff.

You have to convince me it generates pseudomatter on a large scale first, I still don't buy it. Don't forget, Trek's holodeck uses forcefields to give the illusion of solidity and tractors to give the illusion of moving in large open spaces. The field can interact with the devices and there are spells to hold people. These can be combined to give the illusion of solidity and physical resistance. Take Erio slicing the bridge in Ep3. What if, instead of cutting pseudomatter with the consistency of concrete, Strada is held back by a restraint, to the same degree as if it was cutting through concrete? Remember, it's all about simulating reality.

Umm, and is there an advantage to doing all this instead of just pumping out a bit of pseudomatter? Remember that Erio was standing on the bridge, so you need something to support it. Yet Midchildran Spells to hold people generally don't allow free movement - they are binds.

It would have never been enough, Jail could have poured in as many drones as neccessary to hasten the destruction of RF6's base. No matter what they did, they would still have been shown to go under in the same amount of time, and you would still say, "They should have done more"

But if I can't find anything for "more", I'll be forced to concede they did everything they could. In fact, at the end of such an exercise, my confidence in the TSAB would be boosted, wouldn't it?

It seems she was back with the 108th that day, you may have noticed that she wasn't even with the Forwards the night before the conference. She was doing her duty like the rest of them. And it's not like they knew of Jail's interest in the Type-0s. So, how would they know they needed to protect Ginga and Subaru?

All they had to do was remember the basic advantage of concentration of force, or even buddy tactics. Even Mid has buddy tactics, darn it!

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Pardon me if I take this all with a grain of salt; you cannot dismiss the presumption of conflict of interest here. No one should be the judge of his own cause The fact that it's ark doing the calculations, and that ark has a vested interest in opposing keroko's arguments means that following the Test of Reasonableness there is implied bias here.

Good evening, Lawyer. Then what does one say about Keroko, who proposed this in the first place, then refused to fully substantiate his opinion?

I also find it ironically hilarious that the "Math Professor of Nanoha" is admitting that math is not his strong point.

Acknowledging your own limitations is a primary requirement of intellectual honesty.

I wonder whether I could have avoided the below sh*tst*rm if I lied and said the result of the analysis shows that Subaru can punch through 10m of armor. Oh well, if I did this to be popular, I'll have lied already, so let's wade in...

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Yeah, like assuming that the image was of Tea's highest altitude.

There's no evidence of higher.

Or that Subaru straining a *bit* at the very beginning of her military training = Subaru straining at the beginning of strikerS with a high-quality device. Right.

If you can quantify the strength increase and justify it. Otherwise this is just unsubstantiated speculation.

Or, of course, *assuming that the mangaka cared about such things*.

From the moment Keroko proposed this image, we both have to assume he did.

and all of that is assuming you calc was correct, which i doubt.

Blah.

Wow, this approach does not even require the existence of specific complaints!

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

Yeah, seriously, Ark, give it up. The guys making this stuff don't break out protractors and calculators to ensure that it's all done exactly to "realistic scale". They do stuff that looks cool (they hope), even if it means breaking the ostensible physical laws of their world. Believing that you can take the end result, perform calculations upon it, and divine speeds and tension strengths and the like is mistaken to begin with.

If you threw a ball and hit me, does it matter you did not perform a full ballistic equation and only threw the ball in a cool stance? The result is, you hit me!

Further, if you believe that, at least for the details, the author's intent is no deeper than to look cool, then the pro-author's intent people can hardly use it as an excuse to override an observation - there is no intent.

Frankly, it's a mockery of "suspension of disbelief".

Later.

Admit for a little while that the conventions of the art form do not admit to the kind of rigorous analysis that you'd like to apply.

I'll admit that sometimes it does happen. But having already chosen to analyze this "art form" by participating in this thread, one should assume the data is analyzable, unless proven otherwise.

If that means you can't come up with incontrovertible, definitive answers to certain technical questions, well, there you go. It's certain that you've put significantly more thought into the matter than the people who were working on the show. They might have access to a series bible, and it might have certain technical information (though almost certainly dealing with the various magic systems, and with an eye to keeping them visually consistent, not defining them in a technical sense.) But the sort of thing you're trying to take out of the visuals was never put into them in the first place!

Then how did Keroko conclude Teana was thrown up "dozens of meters".

Frankly, if you need technical data to work a certain way for your story, then define it that way! People might argue with your interpretation some, but nobody's pretending that you've deviated from a canon set of rules that everyone has access to.

For such supposed tolerance to different solutions and approaches, my answer and approach is sure getting attacked very hard, even without substantive detected errors.

Originally Posted by Evil Rick

Come on, those details are pointless

For a bunch of supporters of this position, you guys sure are spending a lot of time on an technnical discussion thread.

Originally Posted by Nagumo

... Jeez people, remember the ANIME laws of physics.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/board...24019&expand=1

This is becoming completely ridiculous. The purpose of the anime is to enjoy it!

Yes, and there are a hundred ways to do so. Though I must wonder at the entertainment value of running into this thread just to say this.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

*shrug* My take is simply that ark is SODing because Nanoha has a larger audience. He hasn't been pulling this with Strike Witches, which makes even less sense, because the Strike Witches fandom is very, very quiet.

Actually, when one looks at this, it's rather sad, really. Unable to enjoy anime because you're spending too much time analysing it.

I find it amazing you know better than me how I enjoy myself. Also, did I not mention that I watch other anime more or less normally?

As for why MGLN, I think b/w my critics here you guys have hit the big reasons. It is actually relatively organized and thus analyzable. It has a population (and a SoDer knows that bouncing ideas off others is important), with a substantial fraction interested in discussing the mechanics of their world. And my laziness got molten thanks to Ep16-17 (like a lot of other people's). So, why not?

Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty

Ya know, I've never once paid attention to these arguments of how far, how fast, and how strong, because they never really needs to be justified. I could care less the exact km/h speed of which the characters fly because I don't see the point. While it is true that some level of realism is needed to keep things from getting absolutely ridiculous, using mathematical calculations based on visual data doesn't really work here. Pixels, frame rates, they are all poor examples of scaling. Hell, math exams use it all the time: "this graph is not to scale."

I see a lot of badly substantiated assertions here. As for your last point, please phone me when an anime actually admits it is crummily drawn by flashing "Characters and Scenes not to Scale"?

I know what you may say. If it's not to scale, then why draw it like that? Because viewers would like to see it. If Nanoha really is flying supersonic speeds, it's going to be damn hard to see her fly by and catch all the details. Also, viewing angle and perspective can alter perception. That launch height data at first glance is rather silly to me, since the angle from which we view it IS NOT LEVEL.

If it is not level, then Teana suffers from foreshortening, as explained in my page. Thus the numbers reduce. I thought that had been made clear in the page. I really was trying to let you guys have everything that the selected scene can justify. I'm sorry it wasn't enough to give you a result you like.

Suspension of Disbelief. What a phrase. It refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid pro quo: the audience tacitly agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment.

First, that looks suspiciously like Wikipedia and a bit modified. The observational SoD that I use will be written out almost the same, except they DO NOT necessarily suspend their judgment, and everywhere you see "premise", you put "observation."

Premises sound almost like a good idea until you remember how they are actually made. Since we can't read the author's brain (and in fact the author himself may have no firm thoughts about a particular matter), a premise as actually created is generally a mishmash of casual, subjective observation, guesses about author's intent, and personal prejudices and beliefs. Note that the only part that is actually from the show itself is observation, so observation is the father and superior to premise. Note also that a premise-SoDer has already used his judgment to create the premises, thus violating the injunction to suspend judgment!

Yet the literary act like this premise, which is really but a very subjective conclusion, is superior to observation. So how SoD is a "Premise SoDer" being?

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Not even actually. Most of us at the Fanfic and Original Character Threads (FFT and OCT respectively) don't even give a damn about said rigorous calculations. What we aim for is consistency and believability, not precision, the latter which is what ark seems to be aiming for.

Consistency, with what? The anime, I presume.

We go with believable, not realistic, because frankly how can you expect super realism in a series that has Magical in its title? Introduction of realism and justification in analysis only goes so far in a title where both aren't really high priorities in the presentation.

Please clearly differentiate the two in the SoD context.

Animation does not lend itself to the rigorous calculations that it seems to have been given here because animation is such an imperfect medium for showing reality, due to differences in animation style, technique, budget, creation, etc..

Yet it is the data we have. So when we analyze, we use it for every last drop it is worth.