[kyp275]

Don, if you're not willing to confine the debate to something within the realm of reality, I see no reason to continue any further.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Well, war is pretty evil, isn't it? Something to bear in mind is that in a war situation there is no law in place to protect the participant. It's kill or be killed(If not by the enemy, by your own commander in a court-martial). In such a situation there's not much choice.

Actually no, there's the Geneva Convention, though often times that gets ignored.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

But we are discussing about how we live in a peaceful society governed by the law. In such a society we must strive to reduce all deaths to a minimum. The best way to do so is to remove the instruments by which death is inflicted.

Wrong, the best way to do so is by changing the culture and the drive behind people who kill. Humans are not retarded creatures, they won't suddenly decide not to kill just because you took away the easiest tool to accomplish that goal with. Nor can you "remove all instruments by which death is inflicted", unless you remove every single physical item on the planet, and chop off everyone's hands and legs and pull out all their teeths .

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

And as I said, defend yourself, sure, but don't kill,

There are many ways to defend yourself non-lethally. You can use pepper spray, Tasers or a cane to bludgeon them. All these things can cause them significant pain or injury and grant you the opportunity to escape, without ever requiring you to kill the other person.

Oh lord, stop basing your reality on TV.

Pepper spray's range is extremely short, nor is it guaranteed immediate incapacitation like you see on TV, many can function just fine even after being sprayed, and the period of incapacitation can also be very short. It's a last-resort type of defense that may or may not work.

Taser is the same. Very short range for the shooting type, which is also worthless when there are multiple assailants. The period of incapacitation is even shorter, which practically ends as soon as the charge is stopped. A taser is designed more for LE use where others can move in to subdue the target while he/she is incapacitated. Also, just like pepper spray, some people just aren't going to be affected by them, or they could just be wearing thick clothing, at which point your shooty taser becomes a toy gun.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

The reality I speak of is perfectly feasible. The police in my own country do not carry guns. My country continues to function quite well. A bat is more then enough to subdue the criminals of this world. Sometimes they can carry guns if it is strictly necessary. Thankfully that is not a frequent occurrence.

transplant the population of the L.A. or Detroit or Chicago etc. metropolitan area to Ireland, and we'll see how long your police keep on not carrying guns

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I do not think we should bestow that right on anyone, but if we do, that person must be judged to be of completely sound mind and body, and to encapsulate MY ideals of justice. It should not be a privilege enjoyed by all. Only by special forces and judges, acting in accordance with the law.

fixed, do not confuse your ideals as everyone else's

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Enjoy. If anything, I'd say these things are more effective then a gun. Any criminal hit with these will be immediately immobilized and unable to take further action, enabling you to escape.

One should not spout off on the practical ability of nonlethal forces when one doesn't have a single clue as to their real-world performance and application potential. As I've already addressed earlier in this post, what you're claiming here is pure fantasy.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

A gun shot wound, on the other hand, is often easy to ignore, as it often causes little pain (Reagan got shot by a sniper and didn't even realise it until he saw the blood!).

Please tell me, when was the last time you got shot? Trust me, it's not so "easy to ignore"

Sometimes some people get so much adrenaline pumping through their body that they don't realize they've been shot, but those are the rare exceptions and not the norm, and trust me, it hurts very much so after the adrenaline wears off .

lol... gunshot wounds are easy to ignore and cause little pain? soldiers on every battlefield today would like to know what you're smoking.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

It's perfectly possible to defend yourself without killing another human being. Defend, don't kill.

Sometimes that is true, other times it is not, and that is the reality of the world we live in.