[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The problem starts with the reception of the show: once people start to think that Asuna is some sort of admirable model of feminity, or something. [...] If that sort of false empowerment is used to gloss over the fact (if it is a fact; it's certainly my impression) that we're dealing with a male fantasy here, then we have a problem of the sort: well, women are equal now; why are they still complaining. It's a complacency trap.

I can't speak for others, but I don't think I took it that way. Mostly, I think the characters are constrained by the narrative, and aren't given the opportunity to develop as much as they could be, and that applies to characters of both genders. We get very rough outlines of characters in the encounters we have with them, but there isn't much more there than what serves the narrative's purposes. (More on this later...)

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

It has to be shows like SAO, because the complacency trap. Overtly sexist shows, the poster book stuff (such as Hagure Yuusha no Aesthetica, for example) is a no-brainer. You have to point out the ninja in the shadow, not the barbarian who rushes you head on.

Perhaps, but I think the intensity and vehemence we've seen goes beyond "pointing it out". I'm quite happy to have these conversations and to think the issues through. But it feels strange to me when I see people who are known fans of shows I'd easily consider much more exploitative then go on to rail against this show for what I'd see as comparatively milder "transgressions". If we're discussing these issues as part of continued vigilance against inequality, then I should hope people aren't just setting themselves up for accusations of double-standards.

My general impression is that this point has been exaggerated by some (not all) as part of an over-reaction to this show's hype/popularity ("All The Reasons SAO Sucks"), and I think that actually risks doing a disservice to the issue in some ways. If the issue is blown out of proportion or taken out of context, people may just dismiss the whole topic as "the outbursts of feminists" (or whatever) and fail to understand the subtleties of what is really at issue. (We've seen some of this sort of polarizing effect in this thread as you follow the conversation.) I think there actually is a legitimate conversation to be had here, but it is better to be reasonable and keep it in context.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The show is aware of the limitations of a gamer's fantasy. It brings up the problems, and then... shoves them under the carpet. It's extremely frustrating. The show teases you with interesting possibilities and then goes, heh, fooled you! It's as if the show confuses bringing up issues with exploring them; as if it thinks bringing them up lends the show depth. It doesn't. It's a frustrating tease, if you're more interested in these possibilities than in the fantasy. If you're into the fantasy, though, bringing this up might actually get you thinking.

Perhaps bringing up these issues doesn't add depth, but to me it does add interest. While the story doesn't use these things to develop the characters fully, I think it does paint a bit of a better picture of who the characters are supposed to be. I sort of see it as a rough outline. I guess I appreciate the fact that this "outline" is there at least, as opposed to it not being there, even though I realize that there is a lot more they could do with the story than they chose to do with it. I understand your frustration, even if I don't feel as frustrated by this myself. Perhaps I am more able/willing to engage in the gamer fantasy than you are.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I actually like Asuna, but I don't feel for her predicament, because I have a hard time taking that cartoon villain seriously. What remains is a damsel-in-distress situation. It doesn't matter if she passively waits, or if she works on her end, because the only difference it makes is what the narrative's ideal waifu looks like. The narrative set-up and concept don't allow for a strong female main character.

I'm uncertain about how I feel about this point. Even if you want to say that Asuna is the "narrative's ideal waifu", doesn't it still matter how she's portrayed to act and behave? How would they ever break her out of the mould you feel they've placed her in if not through what they show her doing and thinking? Then again, both Asuna and Kirito have been placed on the narrative pedestal so whatever they do doesn't really matter since it's sure to work out in the end. The only tension they can thus add to the story is the way they arrive at their destination, and not the nature of the destination itself. Such is the fate of the destined couple, I guess. In that sense, I suppose I can see why you find it frustrating if you're not particularly interested in the journey, but are more interested in the things on the periphery that aren't being developed.

Originally Posted by Vmem

You've nailed it perfectly there. As a male gamer myself (not exactly the stereotype, but I don't want to go on a tangent), I can attest to the fact that Asuna is the quintessence of the fabled "female gamer" who actually enjoys (eventually), and is good at a serious game (none of this mario galaxy stuff). Honestly, I see her as the white whale that's rarer than a unicorn on crack than a strong female character to be looked up to.

This is not to say I've never met any girls who play games, in fact, I once dated a girl who kicked my ass in CoD (the shame ); but the role Asuna takes in this anime is not one of a female heroine, but that of a fantasized female gamer.

I grew up playing video games with my sisters, and both of them are quite respectable gamers in their own right. My one sister met her husband partly through a MMORPG, in fact. So while obviously Asuna is only a caricature and isn't necessarily designed to be "realistic", I guess I never found the female gamers in this story quite so far out there. I guess it's within my allowance for what a story is allowed to do to glorify/package/market its characters, and I don't see it as much less than most other anime. I guess I see this show primarily as a fantasy show with a few realistic and sci-fi components, rather than a realistic show with gaming components.