[Orga777]

Originally Posted by yvj

Sidenote:

Am I the only one that didn't find Schniezel all that charismatic? IIRC Schn' was mentioned as being a charismatic leader. Which would be a reasonable assessment since high charisma makes it easier for you to get people to believe in you. But I just didn't see it really, IMO Lelouch was leagues ahead of him as charismatic leader.

Whaaa? Lelouch well ahead as a charismatic leader? XD Sorry, I don't see that actually. Mr. "I Geass to get what I want" and Mr. "I Hide Behind a Mask" doesn't make someone charismatic. Sure he lead the BKs effectively, but did ANY of them really trust him? No... not really... They teamed together out of convienence and only because Zero could produce "miracles." Schneizel on the other hand does not hide his face, nor does he have any magical powers at his disposal. He got everyone on his side without the need for that. Shit, after Lelouch got chased out of the Ikaruga Schneizel was sitting down discussing what to do between him and the BKs and then asked for HELP against that "coup" attempt... and they agreed? XD Oh Schneizel has Lelouch beat in the charisma department... Not that Lelouch is not charismatic, but he doesn't measure up to Schneizel in my eyes.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Ohgi wasn't the final straw, he was the man pulling the straws. The others were not buying into Schneizel's claims. Then Ohgi comes in and they start falling into line. Without Ohgi, he'd have had a much harder time with it, if he succeeded at all. It's a hell of a thing to get them to turn on their leader, but he had a man on the inside doing half the work and didn't even know it. At the very least, they would not have been so gung ho about murdering him without an explanation.

Weren't buying Schneizel's claims? I don't agree there. They were slowly being convinced. It would have taken a little longer, but I don't have any doubt that Schneizel would have had them won over eventually.

By the time Schneizel pulled out the "Geass Papers" (neat name), they had pretty much been sold already. They were too irrational to take a good look and realize these people were just guessing. "Pretty pictures" and all. Diethard played off his association very quickly, and they don't bring it up again, just like they don't bring up that Ohgi's consorting with a Britannian soldier in front of them (it amazes me to no end that not one person even thinks to call him on that relationship).

I think it was more than just "pretty pictures." Probably well researched strange behavior that is all put together that is unexplainable in other words.

Lelouch knew he was screwed when he saw Schneizel, but lacking knowledge of what happened he just assumed that Schneizel convinced them. Schneizel is convincing, sure, and it's probably 50/50 or better that he would have won them over anyway, but Ohgi seriously tipped those scales from "rational removal from power" to "kill the bastard at any cost."

Now I will agree that if Schneizel wonthem over without Ougi, they probably wouldn't have decided to kill him on the spot. Mostly because Schneizel wanted Lelouch alive (which I actually find quite strange... and helps my views on his outlook.)

He was never going to throw away his life so readily, at least not until that was the final option. Death was just inevitable at that point, or so he thought, and he rolled with it.

I know that. But he also couldn't care LESS that he was going to die. Which was my point. XD

Sure, Ozymandias dodged the bullet, so to speak, but the substance is the same. Ozy did see those deaths as necessary (people respond well to mass murder), as did Lelouch in killing thousands of soldiers to secure Damocles, not to mention his rule after that. People get the message that way. With Schneizel, the death itself is the message: "I did this and I can do it again."

Well, I won't argue that... Still see it slightly different though.

That second part seems more a matter of pride than actually caring. Their lives didn't mean anything to him, since he shot at the Avalon when they were aboard it.

Well, Cornelia wasn't in the Avalon... as for the BKs, he gave them a time limit before he fired a FLEIA directly at the Avalon... and they succeeded in that time limit and did not fire at them after that. He may not of cared, but he kept in character by needlessly killing for just his goals. He has some honor after all.

I still say it takes some desire, or he wouldn't have been plotting against Charles back in season 1. Same with Lelouch. His actions were motivated by a desire. He wanted a change and had to be the one to make it happen.

Question... when did he really plot behind his fathers back? He didn't move till he was pushed into it by Suzaku to act. Wasn't there a magazine article withthe staff of CG pretty much that went into how Schneizel had no desires to do a whole lot right before the whole Damocles final battle aired?