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Old 2012-01-18, 19:40   Link #27147
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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Hm... But if that's the case, then why is "a game board without a Reader" treated the same as "a game without any changes or embellishments, with no tricks played on the one hearing the story"?
Comedy "Because Bern is an ass"

But yea, I've said before that embellishments can distort and change what the audience perceives without altering information. Tricks do not have to constitute false information and I wish people would bother to acknowledge that point instead of ignoring it.

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If the two are the same, then in order to have a Fantasy side of the story, one must have a Reader.
Yea, well, they're not. This was demonstrated at the same time the concept of Readers was introduced.

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Not only that, but Battler, who reads mystery genre stories all the time, said clearly in my quote that, on the contrary, the constant premise of the mystery genre is that it must be told from the impartial, objective perspective of God. And you just said that it's the complete opposite. I've never read too many mystery genre stories though, so actually, I don't have any idea which it is. It would be pretty weird if Battler was just totally and completely wrong though...
What the hell are you talking about? I said no such thing. I'm agreeing with Battler but disagreeing on where you're taking that information.

I'm positing that Umineko is genuinely, objectively different from other Mysteries in that it contains non-objective viewpoints and lying points of view, and this is completely irrelevant of a Reader's possible influence.

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The fact that piece!Erika sometimes seem aware of the meta world and of the meta knowledge cannot confirm she's always aware of what's going on there.
And yet, there has absolutely been no demonstrated point where Meta!Erika and Piece!Erika have ever had this sort of disconnect, so why should we even bother to entertain the idea? It's just as completely unsupported and silly as "Ange was on the island the whole time and killed everyone."

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Kanon and Shannon also have meta knowledge.
Only in Fantasy scenes, and in Fantasy scenes, any character can know any damn thing the author wants, including Kyrie insinuating that Lambdadelta is her master.

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Piece!Battler has moments in which he seems to be connected to Meta!Battler following his directions and echoing his words as if the two were one and the same and moments in which he's completely disconnected by it.
Piece!Battler has never broken the 4th Wall by commenting on Meta-phenomena by name, speaking with Meta-Entities while on the Gameboard, discussing and using Red Truth and Blue Truth, or otherwise breaking the very basis of the narrative's suspension of disbelief. Battler and Erika are not the slightest bit comparable.

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So as far as I'm involved yours is just a theory with circumstancial evidence that clashes with circumstancial evidence she might not be aware of it.

From an objective point of view I'll say they both have a 50% possibility to be true or wrong and the sides of the scales are tipped merely due to our personal preferences.

Let's call it a draw...
Except you have not given me a single scrap of evidence that at all implies that Erika has ever had a disconnect of information between any of her selves. You have only demonstrated that such is the case for other characters, who do not function the same way Erika does.

This is not a draw in any sense. You have provided no evidence.

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Wait, can you tell me what are you talking about? Because I remember in the trial she had to prove all her red truths with human means...
Bossing around people with the Red Truth is something she did quite a few times. Remember the First Twilight of Episode Five?

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Well, maybe it's just a personal opinion but I deem pretty important the fact that Shannon and Kanon have exectly the same face. But yes, Ryukishi has a odd idea about what's important and what's not. Evidently realism isn't included in the important things... -_- ... though I seem to remember he also said Umineko is a logic game... and sometimes logic games can care less about realism...
I think we can safely disregard the importance of realism in Umineko the second Meta-shenanigans got introduced. Realism has absolutely no place in the world of meta-fiction.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
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