[LoveMeKags]

Once again, shall save space.

Spoiler for to magnus:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, nobody stopped them from resuming their search after talking to Sheryl, yet they did not. Hence they had no interest in further investigating after Grace.

I doubt there was much time left afterward. 18 led right into 19 if you recall and 20 was Michael's death. Klan was too broken about Michael to do much more research on Sheryl. At that point, I think she took things at face value. So saying they stopped without anymore interest doesn't work given the timeline of events that happened afterward.

He is not very investigative, true. But his other character traits make very much up for it.

Maybe there really was something to Yasaburos assertion that Alto lets himself be dragged along by life. ^^

Oh, I love his piloting skills. (Take me on board, pilot. I'm all yours.)

But I wish he was a bit more attentive with other characters outside of the triangle. One thing I did grow to like about Hikaru was his attention to his other friends, especially if they were feeling under the weather. Alto throws this away in 9 and instead provokes Michael. He has to be told what the problem is. He, beforehand, doesn't settle down and think that Michael just might have similar problems to his own: family issues. Once he finds out, he does feel upset that he treated Michael that way. But later, after Michael is dead, he doesn't really visit Nanase. He throws yet another friend out to dry until 23.

I'm not saying that's a big character flaw, but given that he loves them all and wants to protect them, he needs to be more attentive to them. I'm not saying he hasn't done it before either. I could give you examples of how he's ignored signs from the triangle too (Ranka and Sheryl alone). It's just that he ignores or otherwise pushes people aside too much and when they're gone, he cries to himself, not realizing it's his own fault for not recognizing them sooner.

I think that's why I love Klan. She doesn't want him to be that way. (And I don't necessarily mean that she wants Alto to view Sheryl romantically, but rather she wants him to acknowledge that Sheryl is in trouble.)

By removing that element altogether. Yeah, I have to admit to some obvious plot holes in the series. It's still the more endearing version of Macross Frontier.

Well, I still wish some of the movie pieces would be inserted into the series more. I don't find the second half of the series endearing at all, sadly. It's just, the plot falls apart, and every character following it eats the pieces. I like the movie version better for the plot's ending.

That assumes that there are people who are actively leaking information... something so important would have been mentioned in the show. Not to forget that we are talking about a conspiracy here, which adds wholly another level of secrecy to their inner workings.

Remember that unless Mishima did a thorough search to make sure he had no Galaxy people left behind in 22-23, there was bound to be someone left behind to leak information and provoke Frontier to rebel against its government.

It's not completely left impossible. People sneak into the government all the time.

I simply don't put that much importance on him doing sleuth work. He works just fine for me as a honorable and loyal pilot / ex-actor.

He was more honorable in the movie: giving his life to the Vajra Queen to stop the war.

Regardless, like I said, he has many flaws in the series which made me dislike him quite a bit. His habit of throwing things under the rug, especially when it involves the enemy or plot, wasn't necessary. His movie self made up for this by taking things at face value and questioning what facts he had. An example: the Vajra are the enemy, Ranka says otherwise, question it then find evidence to back it up. And he did. Compared to his series self which said: the Vajra are enemy, Ranka says otherwise, sweep it under the rug, kill all the Vajra.

A lot of characters were very prone to just accepting things and not investigating them further. ^^

Except Ranka seemed very particular about Grace after 15. She seemed very suspicious, especially at first, of why Grace had become her manager. But too bad where Ranka was headed would show her exactly why that suspicion was correct in all the wrong ways.

The other characters were in a wholly other sphere of influence and therefore even less concerned about Graces current whereabouts in that timeframe.

Let me rephrase my original quote: "they didn't think it was awfully convenient that Grace disappeared after Ranka betrayed Frontier?"

I get that Mishima knew what happened. However, the other characters did not. Outside of Sheryl, whom was aware of Grace's betrayal by that point, the other characters knew nothing. And poor Luca, whom had been in league with Mishima for a while, didn't know. So it leaves me back on: "no one questioned how convenient it was?"

I find it ironic, really.

The whole trope is not exactly unknown in other shows, either.

Well, it seems that to this one, it is rather unique. And compared to past Macross', this one is the worst in that sense. Even 7 had better understanding of the plot despite the stupidity of the series itself (and the epicness of Basara).

I was referring the the things which happened immediately in episode 14, on board the Vajra mothership.

She should've shared the fact they were able to reproduce much like birds (eggs ftw ). Other than that, I doubt the government would believe her words of seeing visions of her mother.

That whole "execution without trial" thing in the second movie was about the worst plotted element of it. Although there are some startling similarities to current happenings in the USA...

The reason being for that was because the government was in a state of war, therefore they wave off the trial beforehand. It's nothing to do with what's happening in the USA, that is how all government works when at war and a spy is found in their mists.

Too bad Sheryl had to be that spy.

But I really don't think that, even if we would take the worst case scenario of such a thing even being possible on series!Frontier, Ranka would be in any danger of being executed. She is way too important to Leons and Graces plans for there to be any major harm to her be allowed.

I really doubt she wouldn't. Like I said above, Frontier has declared a state of war. That means she'd get execution without trial if found to be a spy. However, I do say that it is possible that Mishima might've waved it off or used it as blackmail to get Ranka's powers.

You really think so? Her Diamond Crevasse version was beautiful and so was she.

No, I refer to her fake death scene in the movie that was similar to Michael's actual death scene in the series. She didn't pull it off so well. They drew her like a stick figure (for most of the movie too) and the only piece that was nice was the tear on Alto's cheek (which by all logical means should not have hit him since everything is going out and not in, otherwise she would've just fallen).

Evidence ain't work that way. You have to bring at least something which has an official saying something which actually refers to Frontier attacking the Vajra first.

I don't think it's worth finding something official to state it, especially since Frontier gives you a bit of evidence that says so in the episode. However, evidence for that is moot to Kawamori. Whether or not you take the side that says "it did" or "it didn't," he doesn't care about giving you proof of that part of the story because it's so small.

Oh, her own feelings are a big part what makes that relationship so complex. She is just such a tight bundle of self-sacrifice, haughtyness, humbleness, love and friendship that it is extremely difficult to express it correctly. Alto is less complex, although no less noble.

Alto, at this point, was just believing whatever the government told him, so I don't count that as noble. However, if he died in 24, and for something he truly believed in, then yes; I'd say that's noble.

I still say Sheryl was still quite a bit selfish in the second half of the series as opposed to her movie self. And that's why I like her series self better. It's just that, in the series, Sheryl and Ranka were more like sisters (albeit jealous sisters at some points) that knew each other very well. The movie version carries this too. However, Sheryl's persona change does make her fall slightly into the category of being a new Ranka, because she's more open with Alto and allows him to see the side of herself she's hidden so early, and her feelings for him start off as a crush (especially in the flashback). I believe that is why so many AR fans are saying that movie!Sheryl is the series version of Ranka whom fell in love with Alto on first sight. It's not that the whole version of Ranka is mixed in with Sheryl's movie persona, it's that parts of Ranka's persona is mixed into Sheryl's movie persona to make her more able to adapt to the storyline and win the love triangle better. The changes in the storyline especially in the first movie prove my point considering Sheryl got little recycled footage from the series in the first movie compared to other characters. And her attitude in both movies backs up that.

Also, Sheryl has changed a lot by series end. While I loved her persona from earlier in the series, its difficult to imagine her as the same person when compared to Sheryl from later in the series.

OTOH, I wouldn't her getting a bit more of an attitude again. While I love the self-sacrificing aspect of her just as much as the more playful part, after saving Frontier and beating her terminal illness, it'd be nice to see her use her sense of self and her energy to rebuild her life.

If Kawamori ever did a sequel in any way, there might be a time skip to avoid the rehashing or need to get over the series (or in Sheryl's case, the fact she was dying). But regardless, if she returned as her series self, in the sense of whom she was from beginning to end, I think I'd grow to like her more.