[Himeji]

Originally Posted by aeromono

even if all you can say is a smiley (it's better to know the other person did read).

I'm feeling generous today, so I'll give you even three smileys:

Originally Posted by aeromono

I find it strange that you're accusing me of saying something I did not say (and I'm in fact wondering why anyone could have taken it like that at all). It is something natural just as you say and everyone has those fantasies, it's just not in the realm of good vs evil, righteous vs sinful like some people would believe. It's just natural and to be expected, to suddenly assign it a value on the scales of good and evil is terribly judgemental.

The point is that you *did* say it: you said that erotic fantasies are "never good". (sic!)
Now, after my reply, you suddenly changed your opinion and are saying that you shouldn't judge erotic fantasies as good or evil, even though you just did that in your previous reply.
Also, you didn't give a good reason why you shouldn't judge them as good or bad. Just "everyone has them", while true, isn't a good point why you shouldn't classify them.

Originally Posted by aeromono

Are we gonna classify farts as good or evil too ?

Now that's a curious little idea you got there XD
Now if you would please explain to me what erotic fantasies have to do with farts?
Unless, of course, you have erotic fantasies about farts, then you're excused

Originally Posted by aeromono

OK, so let's assume I don't know what 'criticise' mean

Yes, let's do that.

Originally Posted by aeromono

and calling something worthless doesn't mean you're trying to criticise it (you're just mocking it, maybe?).

No. It seems our assumption is right. Let's look up "criticise" in a dictionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticize
(Just ignore the ugly Yankee spelling there.)

1: to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate
2: to find fault with : point out the faults of

Further down:
Criticise implies finding fault especially with methods or policies or intentions.

Calling something "worthless" has neither anything to do with "considering the merits and demerits", nor with "pointing out the faults" or "finding faults with methods". In the opposite, it's an unmethodical, prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory statement of opinion which indicates that you won't permit any discussion about this.

Originally Posted by aeromono

The point is still the same, calling anime bad/worthless (insert your own adjective) is not the same as calling Kirino and her friends bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). Kyousuke did not have to defend her friends, as the father wasn't calling them bad/worthless (insert your own adjective).

The only reason his father didn't call them worthless is because he didn't register them as otaku, or just anime fans in general. That is because he didn't want to register them as such, because that would mean he would have to register Kirino as an anime fan - which would destroy the image of pure, innocent Kirino he's so hung-up on.
You can see that the father has such an image of Kirino when you take a look at the photo album of Kirino which he meticulously led. Of course "daddy's little girl" can't possibly have such a hobby which he considers worthless, that's why he got so really,really mad.
Likewise, she can't possibly befriend others who have such a "worthless" hobby.

The father doesn't have any problems to call persons "worthless", not just hobbies. When Kyousuke convinced him that he is an otaku and therefore has a "worthless" hobby, he is by consequence worthless as well, and the father calls him a worthless son:

Originally Posted by aeromono

To clarify, he was specifically referring to that little incest game with child porn (he was literally pointing his finger at it), not anime in general.

The father *does* refer to anime in general, because he doesn't make any distinction there. Anime, eroge, whatever - it's all the same for him.
That again is for the reason he doesn't know anything at all about anime. To make distinctions between various kinds out anime, and to differ it from eroge, he would have to know more about it and occupy with somewhat with it. Thiswon't happen before hell freezes over however, because he regards anime as a whole (including eroge) as "worthless" and thus avoids it as much as he can.

Originally Posted by aeromono

In Japan, some anime/manga are considered socially acceptable and culturally relevant. ... <snip>

This doesn't really belong here, so I'll cut this short.
In Japan, anime/manga as a whole are considered socially acceptable. There are manga and anime for all age groups. It's not that uncommon to find a salary man reading manga. The manga publishing industry is by far the biggest publishing industry in Japan, much bigger than any other publishing industry. While there are still some conservative media who are trying to denounce anime and manga in general (which is probably just the media Kyousuke's father follows), it's just a small minority.

This is very different from the west, where comics/cartoons are generally regarded as "just for kids", and manga/anime are lumped together with them even though they're quite another thing, just because of ignorance.

Originally Posted by aeromono

And does that explain why he decided to take back his words ? Are we just gonna attribute it to cowardice on his part ? (uhm yeah he was scared of being beaten to death by his own son, I can believe that, I think)

You simply don't understand the father's mindset. He's a very old fashioned father, and as such he's a strict adherent to the old Confucian value of filial piety, which places the father unquestioningly above the son, with the son having to follow the father's every whim.
When Kyousuke grabs his father's collar and threathens him, this is so much in gross violation of the father's values that his father is utterly and deeply shocked by his son daring to do such a thing. Out of this massive shock, his first action is to pretend to give in (he still doesn't have any intention to change his opinion), just so that Kyousuke will unhand him. Who knows what he will do next otherwise?

Originally Posted by aeromono

This is what he said while pointing at the incest game : the people who do these things at this age are called otaku, this is a worthless hobby. Yeah, and now I'll have to repeat this because someone missed it. He did not say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad. She could probably be interested in science and try to pursue a scientific career, and no one can say that is bad (or worthless, insert your own word here). Having something you could get so absorbed in is not inherently bad. So the father said nothing about it. Condemning her hobby (playing incest games and whatnot) is not the same as saying she shouldn't have something she could get absorbed in (she should get absorbed in studying, for example).

Ah, I see what you're trying to say: that the father said that she should have something to get absorbed in, but that it shouldn't be something he regards as "worthless". I still don't see though where you're deducing that the father said she should have something to get absorbed in.

Originally Posted by aeromono

It is emotional because he wanted the father to sympathize and see her daughter is doing well with her otaku friends (oh my she's looking good and all I don't see anything to worry about here), while ignoring the main point about the games themselves.

That's the point, actually. He couldn't convince his father not because his arguments were bad (e.g. pointing out how Kirino is good at school was a good and valid argument), but because he tried to appeal to the father's sympathies. Trying to get the father to sympathise was obviously a bad idea. It couldn't work, because the father has no sympathies whatsoever for Kyousuke, and no sympathies whatsoever for otaku (or anime fans in general) either, so there's nothing to appeal to.

Originally Posted by aeromono

Yeah he was proving Kirino was sensible and mature enough to play those games. This is a convincing point, and I'd go to great lengths to prove it, like I said.

It's convincing indeed. As I just said, it's not his arguments that were bad, it's the way he tried to appeal to his father that failed.

Originally Posted by aeromono

The answer is : you can never know. I said that in the very part you quoted. And now I say it again. Don't accuse me of saying something I did not say, pretty please. I don't even understand how anyone could have read 'You can never know' as 'I am perfectly confident that', and then accused me of being hypocritical. If you intend to make a reply, do tell me how you misunderstood.

It doesn't really matter if you're saying "you can never know" or "I'm sure it's that way". You can't bring up an argument first and say what a crappy argument it is (quote: "Does this also mean if she had less than perfect grades the father would be justified in his condemnation of her hobby?") but finally say "Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." That *is* hypocritical, because you're contradicting yourself with that.
*Either* you say that assuming a connection between her anime hobby and her grades in school is ludicrous, as you said first (and which I would fully agree with).
*Or* you say "You never know, the could very well be a connection between her hobby and her grades.", as you put it later.
You can't say both at the same time, that's just hypocritical. So, which one of the two shall it be? Is it ludicrous, or is it possibly true?

Originally Posted by aeromono

So , if I understand this correctly, after going to GREAT lengths to tell the father about Kirino's friends, you know, the weird friends who could get excited about the most stupid things, the otaku ones, yeah those ones, and saying that the pic was sent by Kirino's friends and asking whether the father needed to worry after seeing it, the father might somehow think these friends are the 'normal' ones who have nothing to do with her hobby ? I know you assume the father has the attention span of a goldfish but let's at least assume he can understand what Kyousuke says , eh ?
He knew that was the pic of her with her otaku friends. Period.

Normally one should assume that he would get it - but that's not the case here, because he refuses to see the pic as what it actually is.
As I said above already, Kirino is still "daddy's little girl", she's still pure and innocent for her father. This becomes very evident from the photo album of Kirino, which is so meticulously kept by the father.
If he would accept the pic as what it actually is, it would destroy his image of her, and he simply can't accept that.

Originally Posted by aeromono

I can sympathize with you here. The order of my sentences was wrong and misleading, I thought you jokingly said that the father was scared and 'would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again' (ridiculous, seeing that he could knock out Kyousuke with one hit). I did not imply you condoned the violent acts, but was simply commenting on how hopeless they both are (like father like son). So perhaps, do not accuse me of accusing you of saying something you didn't say when I did not imply that.

Ok.

Originally Posted by aeromono

In a nutshell, up to this point, you assume he's cowardly (scared of his own son who he can knock out with ease), simple-minded, constantly inattentive, unable to understand the pic was sent by her otaku friends, probably oblivious to the fact that his daughter's feelings were hurt (I agree it is not very obvious, she only runs away!). Anything else ?

Wrong about the "cowardly". He's simply seriously shocked by his son grabbing his collar, which is in gross violation of his values. See above, where I wrote about it already.
"Inattentive": it might be true that he doesn't really care for what Kyousuke has to say, since he only values Kyousuke very lowly, and thus doesn't pay proper attention to him - but that's not the point here.
The rest is correct.

Originally Posted by aeromono

Sorry, but ... you do understand what R18 means right? Yes the father brought that up and Kyousuke had expected that too. It means Kirino is not allowed to play those games. Depending on where you live, selling these games to Kirino could mean up to 6 months imprisonment and a hefty fine.

The "depending on where you live" is an important point here. This is Japan and not the US we're talking about here, so I don't see why you're bringing up some US law for this here.
It's especially curious, as the US mindset, which the US laws are based upon, is so immensely different from the Japanese mindset. In the US, any form of violence is perfectly acceptable, and no one will ever say a thing, even with blood and gore and whatnot. As soon as there's just the tiniest bit of naked skin shown though, there's a huge clamour about it. "Oh noes, won't anyone think of the poor children! Seeing naked skin will burn their eyes out!"

Adult rating in Japan is quite different from the US. This post is already way too long anyway, so I won't go into detail here. Just read these articles for more info about it:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/R18ゲーム
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/18禁

Originally Posted by aeromono

See above. Decide for yourself whether he has the attention span of a goldfish and believes Kyousuke was referring to 2 different groups of 'friends' (the ones he tried to defend, and the normal ones who just happened to be in the picture that Kyousuke used to convince his dad to let her keep her hobby, did that make sense ?)
People can voluntarily turn a blind eye to a lot of things. But after hearing Kyousuke talk a great deal about her new friends who shared the same hobby, being shown that pic, and asked whether he should have to worry, why do you assume the father couldn't understand those are the same friends Kyousuke had talked about ?

"Voluntarily turning a blind eye" is exactly what the father is doing here. Accepting the pic as what it is, Kirino with her otaku friends, would destroy his image of "daddy's little girl", which he can't accept - as I mentioned above already.