[Xander]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch getting killed off too early/too young is an understatement, especially under the circumstances involved. They'd have to either do a retcon, or as in your fanfic, some sort of plausible Geass-related resurrection.

The thing is, it's only "too quickly" if we look at it from an outside perspective or otherwise get too distracted by the fact that the pace of events in R2 was too compressed and rushed (because they wasted a lot of time early on, for well known reasons, and then found themselves lacking it later).

Honestly, you don't need to be a genius in order to notice all of the signs, stars and other heavenly phenomena in both seasons were indicating Lelouch was never likely to live past the end of the show, from the perspective of the narrative and its storytelling. Dark and tortured characters like Lelouch who bear some sort of curse (Geass) and are on a cynical quest for revenge are often intentionally created with at least one foot in the grave.

The first episode of R2 even has Suzaku saying he will be the one to kill Lelouch. If that's not blatant foreshadowing, at least thematically speaking, then I don't know what it is. When Okouchi wrote that line and Taniguchi directed that episode, I don't think they were unaware of what their ultimate goal was going to be (though they probably weren't very sure about how to pace the story at that point).

If we go all the way back to season one and its first episode, we have a line like "those who are allowed to shoot are those who are prepared to be shot" and its very obvious fatalistic meaning that, in retrospect, feels a little too knowingly crafted. It wasn't exactly the most natural thing to say.

What both of the creators have said in interviews also confirms they had this type of ending (by which I understand the underlying concept, not the specifics of Zero Requiem or whatever else is involved) in mind from the start. Lelouch wasn't supposed to grow old, get married and die quietly in an off-screen bed somewhere.

Even if R2 had been perfectly planned and executed, it's possible we would be having this same debate...in an alternate reality.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Which was unfortunate, because F91, V Gundam, and Crossbone Gundam were an indirectly connected sub-series of the UC universe that I liked quite a bit.

Not that this is remotely relevant, but I do plan to read Crossbone Gundam one of these days and confirm whether or not it's as good as people say.

I imagine Akito of the Ruined country will have a similar purpose in explaining what was happening in Europe during the S1/R2 time period.

Yes, I agree that's entirely possible.

That said, the reason online polls do have value in a limited scope is that they tell a marketing agent if (and how much) interest there is in a particular angle of a story.
Especially when considerable time has elapsed since the last installment of a series (such as Geass).

That may be a valid argument, in theory, but I'm sure Sunrise and other anime companies conduct their own surveys, both online and offline, as opposed to looking at whatever is polling well in fan websites where they can't directly monitor all of the statistics nor hope to accurately control the sample size.

However, I'd like to say that you've got me thinking that a cunning marketing staff would save a sequel with Lelouch in it for the proverbial "money shot" moment.

It's not a bad idea, but for now we can neither confirm nor deny that ourselves.

I was speaking of cross-competition between the Geass and Gundam franchises.
Oversaturation of mecha anime in too close a proximity (especially in the economic turmoil of 2008) may have done more damage than good.
I can see why Sunrise would hold off on an actual LoTR sequel until after Gundam 00, and Unicorn were done.

While I was actually speaking about 2009-2010 rather than 2008-2009, I can also accept that the gist of your argument may be part of the explanation.

Just having a few informational flashbacks or "Code-theory" explanations is certainly an option for them.
However, the maximum emotional impact of the "money shot" moment is what the director and writer will want to gain the greatest effect on the viewer.
I would think that would require some backstory to properly support, but then again I could be wrong.

Well, if you ask fans of the Code theory they'll tell you everything about it is logical and doesn't need any additional explanations.

Personally, I would prefer a different solution to the issue but I'm not hoping for too much either way.

There's no scientific way to tell.

Of course, but in the meanwhile...we're just throwing out ideas and interpretations and hoping the wind carries them somewhere.

If a new Code Geass anime does not meet or exceed the original series, or even just R2 (which was considerably less than S1), then it's a failure from a business standpoint since the franchise ought to be able to perform equally well.
R2 was telling at how quickly Geass DVD sales went from #1 in August down off the top ten in a matter of only a few weeks (by October).
I HOPE Akito can beat that and it's first volume can at least stay in the top 10 for six months.
Now that I look back on the DVD sales numbers for R2, I'm actually kinda shocked Sunrise is even making this Gaiden.

Forgive me if I'm reading too much into this, but you seem to be under the impression that Code Geass was once strong in terms of television ratings.

That has never been the case. The first series even aired after midnight (!), which isn't where you're going to find high TV ratings for anime to begin with.

As for R2, a quick look at the ratings threads here in Animesuki and even at past discussions within the Geass sub-forum will tell you that the Sunday prime time slot, nichigo, has generally underperformed compared to doroku, the former Saturday prime time slot which it had replaced and no longer exists.

With the partial exception of true juggernauts like Gundam 00 S2 and Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, both of which still had considerably lower numbers than those that were common for high profile shows in the former doroku slot, the average ratings for anime in the nichigo time slot have been disappointing all across the board.

R2, Sengoku Basara Two and Star Driver all had similar ratings but Code Geass actually had the highest average among those three...although not by too much when you consider the figures were 2.67%, 2.38% and 2.31% respectively.

But this is of limited importance, because the strength of the Code Geass property was always DVD and BD sales, not TV ratings.

Those particular sales are what I've been talking about and they certainly speak for themselves. You've posted links to weekly charts but what's important is the total numbers, not how long a series remains in the rankings. In fact, here (and here in Japanese) are some figures for the top post-2000 TV anime in terms of units sold:

2000-Present TV Anime Series Total Average Sales
[Updated for 4/04/2010 data]

01)　　*78,379　　 2009　　Shaft__________　Bakemonogatari
02)　　*68,729　　 2004　　Sunrise________　Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny
03)　　*58,205　　 2002　　Sunrise________　Mobile Suit Gundam SEED
04)　　*50,552　　 2006　　Sunrise________　Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch
05)　　*44,243　　 2008　　Satelight______　Macross Frontier
06)　　*43,094　　 2009　　Kyoto Animation　K-ON!
07)　　*42,701　　 2007　　Sunrise________　Mobile Suit Gundam 00
08)　　*42,690　　 2008　　Sunrise________　Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch R2
09)　　*41,038　　 2006　　Kyoto Animation　Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
10)　　*38,788　　 2008　　Sunrise________　Mobile Suit Gundam 00 S2

Keep in mind that anything over 10,000 is usually considered a hit. In other words, the idea that anime needs to stay on the top ten for "six months" in order to reach good sales figures isn't really applicable as far as TV anime is concerned and isn't the reason why all these different series achieved commercial success.

It is ironic.
Tell you what, if you win (and they make a sequel without Lelouch in it that is as popular as R2) I'll send you a signed copy of my novel for free (if you live in the continental USA).
If I win, all you have to do is admit it here in this thread and we'll call it even.
If no sequel is made at all, we'll call it a draw, and get a good laugh out of it.
That way we can't be accused of gambling or any such nonsense.
Deal?

First of all, your offer sounds very generous. That much is worth recognizing.

The only problem I see with your terms, which are quite fair overall, is...I wasn't only talking about producing a sequel without Lelouch, which is one thing, but also including the possibility of his not showing up as a character in other spin-offs like Akito and yet still not making them a commercial failure because of it (even if total sales don't match R2's), which is more to the point. Failure would mean selling an average of less than 10,000 DVDs per volume or being cancelled prematurely.

If you're interested though, I'd still be willing to agree regardless of that fact.

Therefore, in amendment, I'll stake the claim that a direct sequel will fail without Lelouch, unless we're talking twenty+ years into the future since that's like a whole new story a la Gundam Unicorn or F91.
Sunrise could attempt that course of action, it would be hit-or-miss in my opinion, but done right, it could be pulled off.

That could be the case. I find it difficult to believe Sunrise would ever want to make a true sequel that's not set at least a couple of dozen years or more into the future, since that's about the only way they could justify making up a whole new conflict on a grand scale without involving the old cast too much.

26 episodes has been the anime "standard" for a series season since the 1970s.
I was using that as the baseline scale from which to judge.

Fair enough, but it is also important to note that Sunrise mecha shows tend to run longer than that without being divided into "seasons" as proven by many examples.

However, I was referring to the lifespan of Char and Amuro.

If you count their off-screen lifespan, that is...which I suppose is possible but doesn't account for their on-screen absence or reduced importance.

Every Zeon pilot and his brother's uncle was yelling "THAT'S THE WHITE MOBILE SUIT!" through the whole friggin series.

Yes, but my point is that's not what set Gundam apart from other robot shows. You're describing a very common and procedural part of mecha combat, for lack of a better term. There's nothing unusual or novel about that. It really wasn't something that made MSG stand out from the rest of the pack.

Amuro was certainly important, but only because he was the pilot of Gundam.
Gundam was the focus.

Becoming the accidental pilot of the Gundam was certainly a key plot device that put Amuro in the spotlight, but Gundam isn't a character and thus had no development. As such, it was only the focus during combat scenes, which is logical enough, yet the overall story wasn't that of the war machine but of the man.

I don't think the vessel can be considered more important than its contents. In fact, the ultimate fate of the RX-78-2 at the end of the series speaks of itself.

Whereas in Code Geass every Britannian soldier and one Voluptuous Viceroy were yelling "IT'S ZERO!!" for the whole flippin show.
Who is of course Lelouch and thus the focus of the show..

That has more to do with the fact Lelouch was never meant to be a great pilot, unlike most other mecha protagonists, but a showman and a mastermind. That was his unique role. However, even if Sunrise had given him the Lancelot and Suzaku's pilot skills, the story wouldn't be about that no matter how many people screamed the name of a white mecha instead of a masked man. I believe story focus and action focus are two different concepts and we shouldn't confuse the two.

Yeah, I've noticed that also.
I hope the manga picks up soon.
Aren't there only supposed to be 11 volumes to this one?

I wouldn't know, but then again the Renya of the Darkness manga is currently on hiatus after its 11th chapter.

NoN did not rank very well from what I've read on ANN.

Are you sure about that? ANN doesn't exactly have such information from what I can tell. By which I'm referring to actual data that would allow us to make comparisons between the different Code Geass manga. They do have regular manga rankings but, once again, that's a completely different ballgame.

The manga adaptation of the anime was the best performing manga of all those produced thus far AFAIK.
What that says to me at least is that at the time the mangas were coming out (with the exception of Renya) interest in AUs was not there (probably too soon for that kind of thing??).
Peronally I like NoN a great deal, but I enjoy AUs.

Lelouch of the Rebellion ran for 8 volumes, Nightmare of Nunnally for 5 volumes and Suzaku of the Counterattack for 2. It's hard to believe NoN did poorly when, unlike the Suzaku-centered story, it wasn't so ridiculously short and actually lasted long enough to cover events that parallel the end of R2.

We also have this quote from Taniguchi's interview on Renya, which is available elsewhere in the forum:

Taniguchi: I requested Takuma-san for this new project because “NoN” was the most freely acknowledged in the world as part [of] the manga expansion of Code Geass. And I wanted to rely on his drawing abilities in order to create a particular atmosphere for this story.

Saying that NoN was the most "freely acknowledged in the world" is a weird way to put it, perhaps because of the translation or Taniguchi's specific rhetorical expression (I mean, how do you "acknowledge" a manga other than buying it?), but that's not what you would say about an unsuccessful product. I assume he isn't counting the Lelouch of the Rebellion manga because it's simply an adaptation and not an original story or expansion (the most "original" thing LotR did was trying to tell the same basic story as the anime without any mecha).

And to the vast majority of the fanbase, Zero is Lelouch.
Thus, if we see Zero in Akito, we are seeing Sunrise use Lelouch to bring in the fans.

To some extent, yes, but if we just saw Zero giving speeches or filmed footage of his past actions including his eventual return at the beginning of R2...I wouldn't think that will be enough to satisfy said fans unless they're really that easy to please. In which case I'd be simultaneously disappointed and content.

That's actually got me very interested.
I wonder if we will see any of the other characters (besides the KoTR).
We may, then again we may not.
Either way I'm anxious for this new series/OAV (or it is OVA?) to come out.

You can say that again. I'm hoping Newtype magazine publishes something for June/July, if nothing else, considering we have seen no news since January/February.