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Originally Posted by Xander
In terms of a hypothetical meeting taking place in the World of C or something along those lines, I would agree with that. However, if both of them were still alive and had to live through all of the events of R2...compassion wouldn't be impossible, admittedly, but it would be a lot more difficult for them to agree with what Lelouch was actually doing even if they were still able to ultimately understand and forgive him.
Then again, if Euphemia and/or Shirley were involved, it's rather likely that the plot would have ended up going in a significantly or moderately different direction to begin with. It would be a lot closer to a straightforward tale of personal redemption and forgiveness instead of a tale where the message of hope is born out of destruction and self-damnation (which makes it ring hollow for critics and cynics even if romantics and idealists tend to appreciate it).
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Yes, I think both Euphie and Shirley's deaths were major turning points for Lelouch's character and the overall story potential. Zero Re:quiem is the best ending I believe we could have hoped for after it become clear Lelouch's path of carnage/revenge would be followed to completion. What Lelouch would have required is actual hope for the world to have chosen otherwise; and Euphie and Shirley's deaths each represented major losses of his few possible sources of it. I think for that reason, after their deaths, Euphie/Shirley would just be glad Lelouch eventually learned hope at all. Had they been alive and these things still happened though, I certainly agree they'd be very upset they let it get that far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist
So you'd rather see millions die because it would be the righteous thing to do?
what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
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Exactly. Personally, I think it is really important to note that despite his political ideals and secondary actions, Lelouch's motivation was explicitly a personal matter. Lelouch wanted to destroy Britannia
for himself, not for the people; he wanted a gentle world
for his sister to live in, not for the people. Lelouch was knowingly making sacrifices through the course of his revolution, which were fundamentally illegitimate in the context of happiness for
all Japanese people. This is a foundational aspect of Lelouch's character, part of what makes him human, but it is also an immediate disqualifier for his revolution being evaluated as being 'correct' objectively. You
cannot say that all Lelouch's actions were in fact justified, because he was only serving the portion of Japan amenable to his greater interests.
Remove every personal aspect from Lelouch's revolution, and I'm not sure if even Lelouch himself would believe it was right to have started it.
edit:
lol, Nogitsune, sorry for disagreeing with you right after you back me up on the Shirley issue. I think the important point of Suzaku's righteousness, is that the result he is looking at is
actually Japan's happiness. For Lelouch, meanwhile, his desired result was actually Britannia's destruction, with Japan's happiness coming about as an after-effect. Or if we put it this way: for Lelouch, the result of Japan's happiness was also less important than the means of Britannia's destruction, just like Suzaku's result was secondary to his means of reforms internally. The difference is, one path embraced needless death and destruction for personal reasons, whereas the other one tried its best to prevent loss on either side, no matter the victim. Lelouch and Suzaku's characters both change throughout the series eventually--Lelouch slowly accepting more and more heroism as his responsibility (although still driven by revenge first and foremost I think), Suzaku meanwhile growing more and more uninhibited in his pursuit of power (again still for Japan; a fascinating contrast morally)--but at least at the start of the series, I think there is absolutely no question who is the more righteous one.