QUOTE=MalakTawus;3976721]Wait wait wait. With Miria joining the fight with awakened legs?
Well,of course that changes things A LOT,but that wasn't the scenario that was in discussion,the scenario that we were discussing was with Miria unable to join the fight (and also Miria can't awaken partially her legs like Claire did,if not she would have already done that before......maybe she can if someone help her,but the only one left that could have a chance in doing so would be Raftela,but honestly if wouldn't be belivable at all).
And again,even if Helen and Deneve get better it means NOTHING in front of Histy's immense speed.
If you can't imagine what it means to fight against an opponent that move at that crazy speed you can think of it in another way: Histy moves normally fast while EVERYTHING else move so slow that they are basically standstill.
No seriously,we have seen what was able to do Miria with speed alone against multiple enemies and without even getting serious and do you really think that Helen,Deneve and some useless warriors can do something against an opponent that moves so fast that in comparison Miria's top speed is a joke, and also is one of the strongest n.1s in history so it's quite obvious that even her yoki is at an unbelivable level?[/QUOTE]
Yes, with Miria with awakened legs in the battle too, why because it was flatout stated in the said spoiler and you apparently missed that then went on a rant about Deneve and Helen not standing a chance. Yet in the scenario being discussed Miria should have been included (she's not like Nike where her contribution will likely be meaningless... she the bloody Phantom and only having her yoki brought under control and her arm fixed so she'll be back on the battle field in no time in all likelyhood). I'm sorry if you felt like not covering a legit topic in the spoiler but it was there and you where saying it wouldn't work so I was pointing out the error in your equation, mainly you missed the most vital warrior still present in the battle.
Too bad you can't prove it means nothing, so please stop CAPITALIZING letters when you can't back them up. You have no way to measure Deneve and Helen's exact power, you can't disprove the possibility of them being strong than they where 7 years ago or even stronger due to an awakening than they where 5 minutes ago (you may believe either or but too many other points of view exist on the matter for you to disprove anything), and you can't prove what exactly Hysteria's power level/speed is, so you can't beyond a reasonable doubt correlate a 100% chance of victory for Hysteria. It's a ball park figure for the 4 (Hysteria, Miria, Deneve, and Helen) so there is likely lots of overlaps where a victory could be pulled off here.
Next off Helen and Deneve are way stronger than Audrey, Rachel, and Nina as evidenced by them out preforming all there of them time and again... so Miria defeating them (especially when Audrey was apparently holding back for whatever reason
) proves nothing either. Your example there makes as much sense as saying Noel and Raphaela are equal in power due to there ranks both being 5, when we know for a fact one of the two (Raphaela) is not ranked according to her true power level. Plus we don't even know if every gen has same ranks always being equal, it's a point of much contention and using any point of evidence that is in contention to support another point in contention is going to draw some flack by the opposition... so calling it the only possible conclusion is clearly both a fallacy and rude.
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus
No,it's A FACT that Claire's awakening is abnormal due to her particular body,it's IMPOSSIBLE to deny this.
Deneve and Helen CAN'T "power up" as Claire did,who the hell are you kidding?
It's not an opinion: it's a stated fact that when warriors awaken their strenght depends on how strong they were as warriors,so IT'S COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for Helen and Deneve to become stronger than a certain level since even now they are probably more or less n.3 material (maybe weak n.2s, but that's being VERY generous),nothing more.
.....if we also consider the fact that Deneve and Helen are nothing special in the speed department,it doesn't take a genius to understand that two awakened n.3s (more or less) that move normally for their "rank" (if they are lucky maybe they can be a bit faster than normal,but sure as hell they would always move in slow motion compared to Histy,the speed's queen),can't do absolutely nothing against a monster like Histy that moves at an impossible speed.At least one has to move at a similar speed to defeat her (so the Miria plus awakened legs could be a scenario.......but at this point it would be best to completely awaken Miria,no?).
Like it or not,it's not an opinion that Claire is the only one that has a VERY ABNORMAL awakening,and it's quite obvious that her particular body is the ONLY reason.
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Yet, it is also impossible to deny that both Helen and Deneve are also both partially awakened and furthermore Dae flat out said warriors can slowly rise in power and Riful furthered this by saying becoming stronger warriors means becoming stronger ABs. Roxanne is bloody proof of this, going from number 35 to one of the eight most powerful number 1s of all time.
So what if Clare has Teresa in her, she wasn't strong enough at the time to access all of the Teresa inside of her. If she had I'm pretty sure Isley would have sensed it and gone ">.> You know Priscilla I think you better go into Pieta first"
Plus when you get down to it Clare has gotten stronger in the 7 year gap and so has just about everyone else and they've relativity kept pace with her power rise (at least in Deneve's case).
Yes, there awakened power does depend on the strength of there power as warriors just prior to there awakening but this isn't a world where one on one has to be the case, in this series 3 or 4 much weaker being can topple a stronger one and with an awakened Miria thrown in they would have a pretty decent counter to Hysteria's speed and those two can either take advantage of an opening or make one for Miria to exploit.
Once again though you are assuming you know the exact difference between Helen, Deneve, Miria and Hysteria's powers and can some how correlate that into proof they can't win. Fine, believe what you want but prove it first if you want to take the moral high ground in a debate. It only belittle's your argument if you can't.
Next off how do you know Deneve wouldn't sprout 50 heads like Cassandra and be immune to instant kills on top of her supper fast healing, since then it matters not how fast Hysteria is if her speed fails to help her kill Deneve fast enough... Next off Helen might be a god of lightning fast ranged attacks and can keep Hysteria at a distance where if she gets too close Helen can target and hit her before she closes in, and even if this is beyond impossible in a 1 on 1 situation based on the power differences how do you know helen couldn't do it in a group fight or Deneve wouldn't interpose her own body between Hysteria and Helen so Hysteria can't tell where Helen's next attack is coming from... finally what about the wild card of Miria how do you know she won't be able to keep pace or at least be fast enough make moot most of Hysteria's speed advantage.
You just have way too many assumptions in your definitive conclusions... the simple answer is Yagi has so much wiggle room in the power gaps he could do whatever he wants here and it make sense. As much as you may disagree if Yagi was to make the chapter go down this route (and i'm not saying it will) Yagi could have Miria attacking Hysteria's foot work thus rending all her speed almost useless to the point H&D could take her on even without awakening. All hysteria has going for her is her speed and once that goes it's clear her power and tactics are a house built of cards. It could happen and is possible, so deny all you want but your conclusions are very narrow minded imho.
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus
Ehm,I also belive that 100% warrior doesn't equal to full awakened power, BUT it's a fact that the awakened power is PROPORTIONAL to the warriors power.
This is not an opinion since we know for a fact that Riful confirmed this (it was not just her opinion,she really experimented) and also all the awakened seen so far follow strictly that rule with no exception.
You try to base your speculation on what happened to Cassy,but you are 100% mistaken for various reason:
- Roxy's judgment about Cassy is clearly not even close to be considered a proof
-If Cassy's basic ability was nothing more than n.5 like Roxy said,how the hell is possible that Cassy,even in a situation where she is super confused 'cause she has just came back to life and even WITHOUT using her special ability,she is still able to fight against a n.3,a n.5 a n.9 with tracking blade???
Give up Ryus,it's a fact (not an opinion) that Roxy was incredibly understimating Cassy.
Even the fact that she belived to be able to kill Cassy after the awakening proves that she once again was so biased towards Cassy to be unable to understand something that someone that is not a moron should be able to understand immediately: Cassy clearly had abyssals power.
-We know for a fact that Dae's true objective is to lure Priscilla and to do so it means that he needs those 3 monsters to be as powerful as possible.This means that Dae already knew that Cassy would have reached abyssal-level yoki so the only logical explanatiion is (ONCE AGAIN) that Dae was 100% sure that Cassy had n.1-level yoki
.....also it's not so fair to judge a warior without her main technique,lol.....not to mention that without her special technique Cassy maybe was simply quite bad at fighting (that's why Roxy could have made that comment),but that doesn't mean that she didn't have n.1's raw power (read "yoki").
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Lets clear up a few things first...
First I never said Cassandra was weaker yoki wise (this is clearly debatable and both opinions have merit), I just said she preformed worse as a warrior than Roxanne did against weaker opponents when Roxanne did better against stronger opponents (so therefore could be viewed as weaker). I did say Yagi has repeatedly failed to make Cassandra as powerful as she could be, was stated to have less senseable yoki than Roxanne, made her look like a fool who only has one trick (dodging at odd angles), and for some reason didn't make her awakening as grand as it could have been. So my point with cassandra has always been if she is stronger than Roxanne Yagi has been doing just about everything in his power to make it not appear that way when they where in human form and has seemingly reversed that when they awakened... also mentioned that Roxanne's most powerful technique has yet to be used so she may have an ace up her sleeve.
Second I agree about what Riful said and meant, the difference is I don't guess warrior power levels like you do so my statements are always way more open... For example unlike you I don't conclude Awakened Teresa was stronger than Awakened Priscilla, I concluded Awakened Priscilla and known her latent power has a chance of being near Awakened Teresa's power level and it could go either way (stronger or weaker) and I see hints Priscilla could be the better but in the grand scheme they could be red herrings too (though writing wise it would make for a better story if Teresa was weaker so Clare can't solely rely on her inner power and has to grow herself, in short no Deus Ex Machina from suddenly accessing Teresa's power).
Third your assuming Roxanne was a legit 5 at the time she said that and not deserving of another promotion. Also since Audrey, Rachel, and Nina aren't the best swordsmen and Audrey a bit of a coward it is understandable that they didn't defeat Cassandra in moments but took there time, they went for the quick and surefire path but inversely a very cautious and predictable route to defeat her where 3 and 5 distract her (Audrey blocking only and Rachel going for the easy to track but strong sword hits) when Nina (the weakest of the 3) went for the true killing blow with her shadow sword. Therefore it was more a battle to whittle her down her defenses and wait for Nina to score a killing blow, however it was easy to read and gave Cassandra more than enough time realize she had no choice but to rely on that method. So maybe what was said about Casandra being a #5 with the technique was very true, if so the comments on her weak yoki vs the others maybe true too but in this case her technique is so deadly she still earns a clear #1 spot.
I never said Cassandra isn't deserving of Abyssal status, I'm just saying she
might be at the low end of that scale in the same way Isley was stronger than Luciela.
Let me ask you though... you say it's not fair to judge a warrior without judging all her abilities and powers, fine but how else do you judge that total ability but but judging each power and technique to reach an understanding of the whole. I'm just saying cassandra is another one trick pony, her trick maybe very very good but if one finds a way to counter that trick what is left of Cassandra that is worthy of AO status or at the very least her odds of survival drop considerably (especially since she is clearly a fool and her current opponent is very very cunning, wise and observant.)
Finally, I get the defense of Cassandra but even if she is strong it still proves my point. She went from being observable to Roxanne even when dodging (thus limiting the potential power gap since Cassandra was using yoki and Roxanne not) to being undefeatable by Roxanne. Therefore her power gain from awakening was massive, so judging Deneve and Helen's current warrior power hysteria's awakened power and not factoring in H&D's potential awakened power rise as massive too due to them being stated as strong by even the likes of Miata is a mistake... plus once again in the said spoiler we where discussing Miria was part of the equation so ignore it all you like, I felt you where mistaken to do so and comment on it... so sue me.