[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by azul120

At the very least, he had to have known he had more FLEIJAs stockpiled and could do what he wanted.

I'll come to this later on. Something else you said in this post gives me a better lead-in for my counter-point.

Originally Posted by azul120

Besides, betting on humanity focusing their hatred on one thing or person is a sucker's bet. People are too fickle.

Bah, away with you, ye cynic! Still, if you feel the way the show presents it is too idealistic, then here's a different way of looking at the same facts: by and large, people - that is, the populus - dislike war, at least here in the modern day, which Code Geass is at least close to. They dislike their resources being spent on it, they dislike their young men dying for it, they may well even dislike the other side being killed during it. They'll put up with it, even willingly support it, in some situations, but only those where they perceive a legitimate causus belli. If it's just a bunch of greedy elites trying to secure more money, fame or power for themselves, they're not going to just sit by and let it happen if they've any option. That's not to say that all wars fought by democratic nations are just; the people can still be misled and manipulated in cases. But it's a lot less likely. The point of Zero Requiem, or rather of the way in which it was carried out, was threefold. Firstly, the world's power structures were reorganised such that, when Lelouch was taken out, it would be very easy to put in place democratically and internationally accountable governments in all the most significant political blocs in the world: the EU was already democratic, the Chinese Federation had its revolution and the Holy Britannian Empire was reorganised by Lelouch; meanwhile, all three were signed up to the United Nations Federation.

Secondly, a lot of the vested interests that had previously motivated war were destroyed. The noble class of Britannia was decimated; the eunuchs of China had already been exterminated; other reforms, such as a more equitable distribution of sakuradite, were presumably implemented. More democracy and international collaboration meant greater barriers to war; this meant fewer incentives for it.

And finally, there would have been a massive political impetus to create a lasting peace. Think the peace talks at Versailles after the First World War, except without a defeated nation for everyone to take kicks at and sow the seeds of the next war. "Never again" would have been the watchwords after the Zero Requiem, as they were there - and, I think, the factors which sabotaged the real-world postwar peace would not be present here - after all, the enemy is not a nation but a single person. Between all this, and the fact that people Lelouch knew and trusted (or had Geassed) to work towards his (actual) goals were now basically in charge of the world, I contend that the Zero Requiem, with admittedly a little luck (but when isn't luck present in fiction or outside it?), could well have worked.

Originally Posted by azul120

Unless you take into account that it was the hostility of the environment that did it in the first place. Take away said hostility, and he's more likely than not to ease out. He was rather happy and content at Ashford.

So? I'm not saying his problem is that he's miserable or rage-filled, I'm saying his problem is that he's just not the sort of personality to do well at peacetime governance, at least nowhere near as well as at wartime leadership. Think Winston Churchill if that helps - great wartime prime minister, got voted out when peace arrived, possibly because voters remembered him ruining the economy in the 1920s.

Originally Posted by azul120

He still is a bit of a fool. Heck, so is Lelouch himself. One of the rules of conflict is that there needs to be some room for something to go wrong, and the Geassverse is just full of 'em.

You're going to need to give me more than a bland assertion of Suzaku's foolishness and a general platitude. Again, I'm not saying Suzaku's a genius. I'm saying he's not a total idiot by the end of the series, and he's got a Geassed Schneizel for when serious thinking needs to be done.

Originally Posted by azul120

How do we know this? All we know is that there was NO way for the command to be cancelled.

We don't know it. I'm saying it's possible, and that I personally find it both likely and aesthetically pleasing as an interpretation of the Geass cosmos. And no, we don't "know" that there is no way for a command to be cancelled (although, if we did, where does that leave your argument with Schneizel from earlier?). Actually, we "know" that there is at least one: Jeremiah's Geass canceller. But that's beside the point. Canon gives no clear indication as to what the full list of immortals' abilities is, or whether this particular one happens to be on it. So whilst I won't slam you for disagreeing with me, I like to think that it is.

Originally Posted by azul120

You're sounding a little patronizing here.

I apologise. That was absolutely not my intent. All I was trying to say was that I'm not looking to convert you to my way of thinking here, just to get you to accept the possibility of what I was saying. Well, that and to have a stimulating discussion, of course.

Originally Posted by azul120

Whether or not it was sum total or just the rate was left out of the details. Not only that, so was the matter of it being a better solution than the alternative. Lelouch said NOTHING to that effect. What is pretty safe to say is that it exceeded both the sum total and rate of collateral damage of his rebellion, much of which was unavoidable by contrast. Besides, him leaving behind the reconstruction in the hands of many of the people who had been fooled by Schneizel? Some brain trust.

If Lelouch not saying out loud that the Zero Requiem was the least blood-stained path is cause enough for you to doubt that he believed it was given that it was the path he did indeed take, then why are you so insistent that he'd make a good leader? The sort of Lelouch who initiates a plan like the Zero Requiem believing there to be a less bloody option sounds more than a little evil, if you ask me.

And no, I don't think it pretty safe to say that the destruction of the Zero Requiem exceeded the total destruction caused by his rebellion, not if the rebellion had been seen through to its end - which is what the Zero Requiem must be compared with, as simply saying, "The Zero Requiem killed more people than Lelouch did during his liberation of Japan and overthrow of the ancien régime in China" is fairly meaningless, as in the latter case there would still have been the long, hard slog of actually destroying Britannia to come. I've said why I don't think this is the case.

As for your comment about everyone being fooled by Schneizel, I'm reminded of an exchange between Szilard Quates and his homunculus Ennis in Baccano!:

"Ever since that incident with that young pup aboard the Advena Avis, I have made a point of never trusting anyone younger than myself."
"But sir, from where you sit now... isn't everyone alive younger than you?"

Schneizel's a clever bastard. Being fooled by him isn't very difficult, and is thus a poor benchmark for stupidity. Admittedly, I'll agree that Ohgi at least was rather too easily fooled, so that would be a flaw in the ending, but generally, I think they're a capable bunch. And they do now have Schneizel himself working with/for them. I wouldn't be too pessimistic if I were you.

Originally Posted by azul120

Apparently you haven't been following well enough. I would have preferred him to NEVER go with his plan of alienation to begin with. Not only would he be able to call out Schneizel, he wouldn't have to go up against the BKs all at the same time.

With all due respect, you seem to be the one who hasn't been following well enough. I answered this point earlier in the same post: when Lelouch and Suzaku conceived of the Zero Requiem, there was no way for them to rely on Schneizel conveniently presenting himself as the ultimate evil for them to set up as their focus of hatred. By the time it became apparent that he could indeed fill this role, they were already too committed. Back-pedalling to try and make Schneizel the fall guy would have been pointless; they would have had to go down anyway, and relying on Schneizel to do what they needed would have been too dangerous; plus it would have meant he too would be gone after the Requiem's completion, and thus his talents wouldn't have been around to be used in the reconstruction afterwards. That's why it had to be Lelouch who went down as the demon.

Originally Posted by azul120

Here's the thing: how long will the peace last? When it's gone, it's gone, and all the destruction from the ZR will be for naught.

My answer is this: how deeply shocking would it be for war to break out between the large nations of Europe in this day and age? Unthinkable? And yet a mere sixty-five years ago, Europe had only just emerged from the largest but in a sense merely the latest of a long, seemingly never-ending string of bloody wars. Peace can work. It just needs to be given room to breathe.

Originally Posted by azul120

Schneizel was waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more loaded though. You cannot equate both cases.

Oh can I not? Well, now, here's what I admit that it's been a while since I've watched Code Geass R2, but still, you tell me: what substantial preparations did Schneizel make in the time between Lelouch's ascension to the throne and the outbreak of hostilities between Britannia and the Schneizel-led Black Knights? He already had his FLEIJAs; most of his military forces came from the Black Knights, who did little by way of active military build-up during that time; for the most part, all he was waiting for was the optimum moment to strike at Lelouch. By contrast, what did Lelouch gain during that time? I can think of two big things right off the bat:

- He was able to deal with other threats to his regime. Principally, this meant the Britannian aristocracy, and in particular Bismarck's loyalists. Having to fight them at the same time as fighting Schenizel's forces would have made things more difficult for him, undoubtedly.
- He was able to find Nina and develop the anti-FLEIJA weapon. This, may I remind you, was indispensable to his eventual victory.

Whatever else might be the case, saying that Lelouch accomplished nothing of importance whilst waiting for Schneizel to show himself is wrong.

Originally Posted by azul120

Remember the kiss C. C. gave Lelouch during the Black Rebellion? She created a memory imprint to be stored inside C's World.

I've raised issues with this before. In short: if all C.C. did was restore Lelouch's memories, why did that also restore his Geass?

Nevertheless, the more important point is this: that is one possible interpretation of what happened. It is not something that is definitively set down in the source material. You're welcome to hold to that view if it's more pleasing to you, but I have a different one which I believe is just as valid.