[Thess]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

After Rider's conversation with Waver, all I could think about was, "Fuck your path. Fuck your path."

You led your men to death for something stupid. If you wanted to see the other end of the world without killing, book a travel agent. "Don't mind us, just me and my soldiers walking through to see Oceanus...oh, can I have your country while you're at it? No? War time."

Yeah, because that's really common in his era.

And are you implying people will let the ruler of Macedonia simply walk on their territories with his army? Nobody believed him he was only passing through without interest in the territories (it's even in the novels), because it sounded outlandish. Eventually, his defeated foes realized he was saying the truth and... joined him. I suppose I blame the anime for shrinking Waver's flashback. All the people he defeated, were given their lands back. Rider simply take off. They willingly abandoned everything to chase after him. He conquered... their hearts. That's what his conquest path was about. The hearts become one with his. He's the living and walking "Defeat means Friendship" troupe.

This inspiration was what Saber envied, because she could never gain the loyalty of her subjects as much as she tried. They never talked to her.

Originally Posted by SJCrew

I cannot stand his self-righteous attitude toward Saber's ideals. I mean, outside of that, he's a good guy, great even. But whenever discussion of Saber comes up, he's fucking obnoxious. "Oh what? You didn't live the way I did? Fuck you and your kingship. Nothing you did mattered. MY WAY IS THE RIGHT ONE LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING." I really hope they resolve this forced rivalry soon. It's stupid, and should have never been written into the story.

You completely misunderstand Rider's criticism on Saber and calling him self-righteous? Wrong ruler, that's the King of Knights. How ironic that Saber reaches to his same conclusion about mourn but not regret eventually and be proud of how you reach (and both take what they need for their Masters: Shirou and Waver, even the manga version has Waver and Rider in the Saber and Shirou pose to make it obvious). If she had been a bit less narrow-minded, she would have actually get a civil discussion (unfortunately it derailed because of mocking Gilgamesh and Rider later misunderstanding Saber's grief and wine. The wine got to their heads and then... there was no other chance). But Zero Saber has this flaw (and I like her arrogance more than her lack of pride in FSN). He cares a lot about Saber. Did you miss his sad expression on his face when he saw Excalibur? While Gilgamesh wants to see her crushed under that burden, he wants to foolishly save her. He has nothing but respect for Saber as a fighter and warrior, plus admiration for her spirit. But he sees her role as a king as destroying what makes her human.

Which is what she did. To be a king, she destroyed her humanity. He's right on his observation. Not saying she did wrong, but Rider likes Saber and hates to see her in pain (his too extreme empathy is a flaw of his because it makes him too foolishly emotional). He told Gilgamesh they couldn't see each others in the eye when he gleefully get off her pain in Rider's face on that bridge.

Also, not getting your last point? Rider is Archer's "worthy rival" according to Nasu. Saber was never a rival for either of them. To Rider, she was just a person he wanted to save (Same as Shirou did in the beginning). To Gilgamesh, she was just a thing to claim as his because he wants to see her suffering the moment she's broken.

The three of them are great kings, as well. Nasu idea was to have the kings contrasted (since they are different from each other- Gilgamesh doesn't give a crap about touching people's hearts like Rider or ideals like Saber. He's an "absolute controller." Ironically, he can't be corrupted because of his godly ego, but just Saber can and very easily- because of her selflessness. Rider and Saber are actually more alike, because they love their people and have big dumb dreams about utopias. Oceanus, what you badmouth, is an utopia as much as Avalon is, different because they answered to their era concepts of aspirations. They tried to become the best ruler, rather than be "born" like Gil was. They went on it in opposite ways. They led by example but different example. Rider aspired as be as human as possible for his people to identify with him, Saber to be as less human and 'lofty' as possible so people would have some icon to look up in chaos). They are just the best for the era they lived on. You put Saber on Rider's or Gil's era? She'll suck. Same if you try to place the other two in hers or each others reigns. I suppose my personal perfect ruler is a mix of Saber and Rider.

If Saber has a 'rival' in Zero is either Lancer or Berserker. The kings are there for her to feel (wrongly) inferior. The issue of Saber versus the other kings wasn't that she had a different method (novel point out this wasn't, although anime did remove this dialogue. In fact, Rider tells her she should be more open minded even if their ways are different), but that she wanted to change history and step on her reign and legend. She wasn't respecting her path of kingship. That was all.