[Mentar]

Originally Posted by bayoab

First of all, that is not ADV's point because their linear channel is free to some. Their point is the unrestricted availibility of the series for free hurts DVD sales. (This is especially true in other markets.)

That's the same thing. The ADV linear channel is a complete non-factor. Unless you attribute to fansubs/dvdrips some mythical infernal powers which taint the mind of people possessing them, their relevant property is the easy and free availability. The implicit and logical conclusion would be that easy and free availability would have to be harmful to DVD sales. However, empirical data proves (via sales numbers of especially easy-free TV shows) that this blanket claim is FALSE.

Second of all, I do not preach the word of ADV as I do not believe their theory is correct. I know exactly how you argue these things from mulitple other threads and you love to twist things like this.

Cut your sniveling and read your first sentences in this thread. Your OWN words:

Originally Posted by bayoab

Completely incorrect. Companies have explicity said multiple times that fansubs have killed sales of some series.

Quoth Industry Rep: We look and see it got 50k bittorent downloads and we look at the sales and there is definitely a gap. (This is paraphrased of an exact quote with some editing, he did not explicity mention bittorrent.)

Now if you suddenly turn around and claim that this was just ADV's opinion and not yours, why did you open up with "Completely incorrect", huh? Don't blame ME for misunderstanding your positions when you're lacking consistency and precision in your own statements. And just for the record, even after rereading your posts two more times, I'm still unsure what YOUR theory is, then.

How do you think the majority of people who buy DVDs for dubs get to preview the dubs before they buy them? It certainly is not fansubs.

"Certainly"? How do you know that? And are you trying to construe some wacky position "dub watchers = good, sub watchers = bad"? I'm just asking before you cry once more about me "twisting" things.

Yes there are those who get th show as a fansub and then buy it afterwards and listen to the dub, but every time the companies have taken statistics, they have clearly pointed to a schism between fansub watchers and dub watchers.

Again, whether they buy the DVDs to listen to the dub, or to put them away on their shelves shrinkwrapped is TOTALLY irrelevant to the labels. What counts for them is the SALE itself, not what people do with it.

But please provide a link to these statistics you're talking about. I'm certainly willing to learn.

I know tons of fansub watchers who spend 0 on it. They are all over IRC. You tell them to buy something and they just go to another channel and download the DVD rips.

Do people like this exist? Certainly, but they're much more rare than you're painting them - at least in MY experience. Even assuming that they are, that alone doesn't prove that fansubs hurt DVD sales at all. This is the only group which negatively effects DVD sales:

(-) : People who would have purchased a DVD, but refrain from doing so because they're content with downloading fansubs or rips.

Sales are NOT affected by this group of people:

(o) : People who download fansubs or rips, but would not have bought the DVD anyway otherwise. Most of the people you're complaining about would fall into this irrelevant category. They may be annoying to the labels, since they're watching anime for free, but they do NOT harm their bottom lines.

On the other hand, these are the groups which HELP anime sales:

(+) : People who purchase DVDs, but would not have known about this show if they hadn't watched a fansub/rip.

(+) : People who purchase DVDs, but would not have done so if they hadn't found out via fansub/rip that they like it so much that they want to own it.

(+) : People whose interest in anime was raised by fansubs/rips, and who would have picked up a different hobby otherwise.

(+) : As a sideeffect: People who turned into anime fans because of fansubs/rips, but blow their cash on other anime goods (mangas, plamos, wallscreens, games etc). Many labels have more than just DVDs as product lines.

You think that the (-) group is bigger than the (+) ones? Based on my experiences, I strongly doubt that. But I know for a fact that the anime market wouldn't be remotely as big as it is today if it wasn't for the fansub world.

And you ask how I know about them? Go to a convention or two or ten and sit on lines, in panels, in the dealers room, etc and you hear them. Also, go read the animeondvd boards and see how much they rely on things such as word of mouth or other people who do watch raws.

See above. Most of these people you mention would fall into the (o) category. And if you meet them on conventions, most of them will STILL blow their cash on something else then (see the last + group). You'd rather have them skateboard? And ask yourself, how many of those people would BUY their DVDs otherwise? Hm?

Because you invented that as my theory to fit your theory. It's called generalizing as these are the two majority groups. The minority of fansub watchers buy the majority of the DVDs among fansub watchers.

I spent 5 minutes trying to understand what you're saying and failed. Maybe this was a typo?

There is no point in explaining what 15 groups do when only 2 groups matter.

Who are those groups? How about you define them first? Which 2 groups out of which 15 matter why?

According to your logic, everyone who watches fansubs buys something.

According to my experiences, most people watching fansubs do, yes. Because most anime fans (at least the ones I know) watch fansubs, so this is the majority of the anime fandom family.

And no, not EVERYONE buys something. I'm sure that there's some l33ches who don't spend a single penny on anime. But most people I know do - they buy their shares of DVDs, manga, OSTs and whatnot. I'd venture a guess that nearly everyone reading this board will watch fansubs. I'd also venture a guess that you do, too.

Now, are you a good guy or a bad one?

Or should I have asked "do you like dubs, or do you watch fansubs"?