[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Altruism isn't about worrying about anything, altruism is about _helping_ others. If you feel like giving evidence that considering things like "what will others think" ever precluded Hina from _doing_ something and helping people, go ahead.

I didn't say she didn't help people, I just put forth that her motivations for doing so weren't always as sweet and pure as you make them out to be.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Sorry, your attempted characterization is simply unfair. Hina consistently tries to do the right thing, and it's NOT always about her, and most definitely even fewer about her own wishes. Calling her of all people "self-centered" is silly.

It's silly to call a girl very focused on herself and her image self-absorbed? I never called Hina self-centered. That would imply a certain brand of selfishness that I think Hina lacks. But self-absorbed? Almost certainly. Her actions might be about other people many times, but her thoughts? Not very often.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Cowardice? The girl has a conscience and is grappling with her emotions, and based on that she's trying to do the right thing. Her self-reflection DID allow her to realize her betrayal of Ayumu and to apologize for it (something which Athena never had the guts for). It wasn't easy for her, but she did it.

"Hayate, I'm sorry for always hurting you." Did you forget about that apology?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Self-serving? She was answering Isumi's question, after she purposely drew her away to leave Hayate and Athena alone. Calling this act self-serving is so obviously absurd that it's staggering. It's not Hina who is self-serving, and who is wallowing in self-pity unless others save her behind. That's Athena's specialty.

Oh yes, heroes are so noble. They can't show anyone the tears behind their masks. Just, you know, tell people about them in melodramatic statements, thus negating the idea of "crying where people can't see you" entirely. You say I shouldn't blame Hina for her thoughts, but then go on to blame Athena for hers?

By your definition of "sacrifice" Athena has actually sacrificed much more than Hina did. After all, she was willing to sacrifice her life to take down Midas, right?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena has two priorities: Herself, and Hayate. The latter primarily as means to take away HER loneliness. And she's pursuing these priorities very honestly. Agreed so far.

No, Athena has shown very clearly that while not being with Hayate is painful for her, she puts his own happiness far above her own. She does not take the stone at the most opportune moment--when Hayate is asleep--and tries to warn him away when Midas takes control. She pretends she doesn't know him in order to keep him uninvolved--because she's afraid she'll end up hurting him. She magically broke the swords in their duels as children in order to avoid killing him when she lost control.

If it was just a matter of using Hayate to stave off loneliness, then her actions would have been very different. It's hard to use Hayate against loneliness if you're constantly pushing him away, wouldn't you think?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Pre-expulsion as kids, she had no problems causing Hayate pain when she thought it was "better" to do so.

You mean like Hina instantly going on the attack because Hayate was a few hours late for something? Hina didn't even have the excuse for doing it to his betterment.

Aside from that, it was training. Athena was actually quite patient. He dropped a bucket of water on her head with no retribution on her part in any form, and she was also easy with her praise. That's especially important, because she was building Hayate's self esteem along with his body.

It's sort of like how you only remember the part of the flashback where Athena talks about money, and never mention the part where she says a man must be both strong and gentle too.

Originally Posted by Mentar

She tried to meld Hayate into HER perfect companion.

See, I don't remember EotW ever mentioning that being her motivation. Athena herself says her motive for teaching him swordfighting and such was teaching him "to believe in himself." It might be that she preferred a strong, gentle Hayate as opposed to a weak, cowardly Hayate, but Hayate himself agreed to take the role of her butler, so I would assume that also includes on the job training?

Originally Posted by Mentar

She threw him out when he dared to oppose and deny her.

No, she told him that he should just leave. She didn't expell him, but she did say something she shouldn't have. Also, she wasn't upset that he opposed her, she was upset that he didn't understand her.

Originally Posted by Mentar

After he had gone, her primary focus was "Uuu, I AM ALONE AGAIN" (reinforced yet another time in c262).

So, let me get this straight. Hina crying over not getting a boy she likes is the highest of tragedies. A six year old girl bursting into tears over staring down the very real propostion of being alone for eternity, of never hearing another human being call her name again, is selfish?

Originally Posted by Mentar

After she found him again 10 years later, she didn't come clean, but rather decided to "stay away".

Come clean about what? Her first priority was making sure Hayate didn't become involved, not to protect herself, but to protect him.

Originally Posted by Mentar

...and then she still goes on to do it anyway. That's the point. But I guess that was all just Midas' doing. Convenient to have an evil side to deal with the blame.

If she wanted to take the stone, she could have done it while he was sleeping, you know. As opposed to leaving the room the second Midas began to take over. The narrative is extremely clear on the fact that Athena is unwilling to take the stone even to her potential advantage. Furthermore, the narrative is clear that Athena has selfish reasons to take it away from Hayate, which she acknowledges and rejects. Not all of Athena's failings are blamed on Midas, like you're implying.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Now Athena: She deeply regrets that she "always causes Hayate pain". So, to put an end to this, she wants to unsummon herself and King Midas to save Hayate and all the others (but then, she doesn't).

I'm pretty sure she was in the middle of doing that when Hayate rushed in and saved her, since she said that's what she would be doing.

Originally Posted by Mentar

In the middle of the battle all she can think about is about HER and Hayate, how she wants to touch him, but is afraid of hurting him again. But NEVERTHELESS... she wants to touch him. She wants to hear him call her name. "HAYATEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

You forgot, "as long as you're happy, that's fine." So selfish, that putting other people's happiness before your own, explicitly.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena is talking the talk, but ultimately sticks with what SHE really wants. Hina is walking the walk and ultimately goes with what she believes to be the right thing to do, even if it's the opposite of what she wants. Guess that's what's making Hina "cowardly" and "self-centered" (your words)

I'm sorry, I don't see the difference. Athena holds strong to pushing Hayate away from her because she believes he's happier without her, until the very end when she thinks she's about to die. She didn't force Hayate to save her, even though deep down, she wanted to be saved.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Then you can't be looking very hard. See above. Also, didn't you just translate chapter 262 by yourself? (thanks for that, btw) It's hilarious if you list all lines of Athena (spoilered for brevity, the first 13 pages). As an exercise, mark those lines with "I", "my", or are immediately describing HER situation.

Did you miss that at least half of those lines are an apology and taking the blame for what just happened? Yes, she's sad about being alone for the rest of eternity, but she's also apologizing to Hayate, and taking responsibility for the circumstances that led to her current misery.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Keep in mind, self-centered was the word _you_ picked out first.

Nope, it was self-absorbed.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I don't doubt that she's hurting over causing Hayate pain, but you don't read lines like "I'm sorry that I threw you out of your home", she says "I'm alone again... forever". She doesn't say "You must be hurting out alone", she says "It's all my fault, I broke it".

First of all, Hayate doesn't see the Royal Garden as his "home", since he wanted to take her out of it. She's regretting her words and actions, not only because of the impact they will have on her, but Hayate too. "I'm so sorry...Hayate." She also admits that she wanted to take the course of action he suggested, meaning she acknowledges that he was the one that was right in this situation.

Athena has talked about how one of her goals was to save him from his parents, how she had searched for him in order to do that, meaning she was aware that he was in for pain when he left her. She even talked about how the thought of her own actions leading her to be unable to save Hayate makes her heart ache. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that she didn't spare a thought for Hayate's feelings about all this too.