[giorno]

i really should just let this one go but...it's a pretty interesting discussion, at least for me

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Shinji103

So in a series full of kids where they're easily just as capable as adults, just like hundreds of other animes, Kuroko is the one single person who is an exception? This almost screams plot hole itself; plot hole or not beside, one would think that an important agency like Judgement would be better choosers about their members.

Kuroko also showed us that she still IS just a 13 year old girl, and doesn't have the discipline and judgement a trained adult would have, more than once between railgun manga and volumes 6 and 8

Of course you evacuate them all, but as you just agreed you start with the more vulerable ones first. That means one of the first two people out should be Hyouka instead of Mikoto.

Except to a member of judgement or anti-skill, they are ALL just as vulnerable. That's apparently what they are taught, all civilians are seen equally as just civilians, regardless of their level

Which is exactly why it's a plot hole, i.e. inconsistency; Kuroko has demonstrated time and again that she is a capable, well-knowledged member of Judgement. Deciding that a level 0 is more in danger than a level 5 who just blew away the terrorist's ability with ease doesn't take a rocket scientist

yep, this is where we disagree, basically, i.e. our view of Kuroko's character. You see her as a capable, well-knowledged member of judgement who is very disciplined and doesn't make mistakes.

I see her as a 13 year old girl with a great power, who is well-knowledged and capable thanks to her training as a member of judgement, but who is not that disciplined and still makes mistakes because of her personality, confidence and immaturity

Why didn't he wait? Because he's always going off to fight the bad guys. That's not inconsistent at that he went after the bad guy; he was already telling them that he would be the decoy and buy everybody time to get out befoe Kuroko had taken anybody out of the mall int he first place.
He told Hyouka to stay put, but like I've said several times around here, he has no means to make people stay put; Hyouka will go after him if she wants, as will Mikoto. He can't stop them.

It is inconsistent because he knows how teleport works, and his priority is taking Hyouka to safety. Which means he should have waited for Kuroko to come back first, then go after Sherry. It's true that he always runs off to fight the bad guys, but he also always prioritizes the safety of his friends, and is definitely not dumb enough to just run off like that

This is another assumption you guys are makingl

an assumption that is based on the way Mikoto is portrayed in both the novels and the railgun manga

how do you know how much experience Mikoto has?

clearly not much "real" battle experience(as in, an actual battle that involved more than just blast away with her power, and in which her life may be at stake), and close to zero with the dark side. Again, this is made quite clear by both index and railgun

How do you know Frenda is more experienced?

she is a member of ITEM, a mercenary group of the dark side of AC who's constantly getting jobs that involve fighting and killing

Either way, Frenda obviously couldn't overpower Mikoto through tactics, as she lost very thoroughly.

i wouldn't say she lost very thoroughly, she nearly DID kill Mikoto through tactics, and only lost because she didn't kill her fast enough and forced Mikoto into a corner. Mikoto managed to win because she had nothing else to lose at that point, she was going to die anyways, so she had to use her power

Their battle clearly showed how Mikoto's strategical and tactical abilities are no match for someone with much more experience than her who relied on this to fight. She still won, because her power and her skills in the end proved too much for Frenda to overcome through superior tactics(and also, Frenda did not expect her target to be a level 5)

Part of that was due to Mikoto using her powers strategically and creatively as opposed to "point and shoot."

yes, absolutely. I never said Mikoto isn't very smart, creative and quick to adapt and skilled in the use of her power. What i said is that she is clearly still not as good as Frenda or Shiage in this regard, and that to think that she could be a better tactician than an experienced and powerful magician such as Acqua is just stupid. Her fights with Touma are also proof of this

Besides which, Touma had zero experience fighting against magicians, same as Mikoto, but did just fine.

he had experience fighting espers. Apparently it wasn't much different than fighting magicians, according to volume 7

And if Mikoto had fought bad guys with Touma, any knowledge he gained from index would have been available to him.

yes, of course

That said, I would fully expect Mikoto to try and keep Touma out of the battles at first

totally disagree with this

Not very relevant; he's a level 0 in what is essentially a street gang. A gfar cry from the third most powerful level 5.

I'm not discussing who is stronger, i'm discussing who is the better tactician of the two: the guy who's constantly getting into fights that may even involve his life, and has to rely on his brain to fight, or the girl with the overwhelming power who only ever fought one person who was more powerful than her?

2. Except Mikoto beat Mugino too. With tactics and creative use of her powers.

yes, she kind of did....

Knocked her out stone cold

Nope

Shiage having anything over Mikoto is irrelevant and pointless; Mikoto proved she's at least just as competent.

that's because Mikoto is a level 5, Shiage is a level 0. I never said Shiage is stronger or more skilled than Mikoto, what i'm saying is Shiage is better suited than Mikoto to fight people more powerful than him, because that's what he's been doing all his life. Mikoto on the other hand only had ONE such experience...

Mikoto's victories over Frenda and Mugino through tactics and creative power usage would like to have a word with you too.

No, not when she was cornered and nearly killed by Frenda, a result of their difference in battle experience

First, magic is almost literally worlds apart from Esper abilities; they're not really comparable, as people here are pointing out themselves.

apparently they are, according to volume 7

I still somewhat disagree with this undertone thing. Sure he didn't want her to get involved and specifically told her to go home, but he didn't have anything to force her away nor did he actually specifically put any effort into; and again, even if he did, Mikoto's not the type of character to just turn her back on someone limping to a battle because they asked her to, much less when she's in love with him and knows it.

we have a different idea of her character, then. I find it entirely reasonable given the situation

Again, Judgement's duties specifically involve evacuation/protection of civilians. If there's one thing they would be trained on, it would be this.

true, you're right about this, my bad

Honestly, there was nothing to be that overwhelmed about. She confronted him about his amnesia and he explained to her why he fights even though he can't remember his life. He didn't drop some bombshell that utterly changed her life beyond a semblance of its former shape.

we have to agree to disagree on this

no point discussing this further, as neither will change idea, i guess

This makes no sense; how is Mikoto any faster to get out than Hyouka?

because she's closer, because Index is making a mess about it, and because Mikoto herself may make a mess herself later.

But mostly, she's just out of time, has to evacuate 3 people ASAP, and since they can't decide in which order to be evacuated, she just grabs the two closest
to her who are bitching about it

this isn't out of character for Kuroko. Forced, convenient plot device? Yes. Plot hole? Nope

I wouldn't say Mikoto has a dark past, but given that Touma had to save a bunch of level 0s from Mikoto in the first episode, I'd say she has a habit of getting into fights. Moreover, we know she gets into fights; for one thing, she's always challenging Touma to a duel.

the big difference is that Mikoto's fights are mostly frying some punks. Not even real fights at all. Touma's fights on the other hand are actual fights

Have Stiyl watch a close friend get brutally murdered like Mikoto saw one of her MISAKA clones get brutally murdered against Accelerator. If you honestly expect Stiyl to keep his calm, then we're not watching/reading the same title.

i guess we aren't reading the same title, then

Just because Mikoto would go more "crazy" than Stiyl probably would doesn't make her less competent for having a harsher reaction

Yes, it would. Just look at volume 3. Then look again at volume 8 or the liberal arts mini-novel. Granted, the situation wasn't nearly as desperate(for her), but she was still able to deal with it much better. That's what experience is

Stiyl by now is hardened enough to not break even if put into a similar situation as mikoto with the sisters

Kenshin Himura, Vash the Stampede, and fighters with (initially) less experience like Ichigo Kurosaki go BALISTIC when they see innocents get killed or even just hurt a little. It doesn't hinder them at all.

And that is relevant...how?

I'm not sure why you think I'm saying Mikoto can get in on the action in scenes other than those...........

'cause you kept talking as if there were many more times other than that. At least that's how i interpreted your words

"In a way."

what, you wanted more?

"A plot device is an object or character in a story whose sole purpose is to advance the plot of the story, or alternatively to overcome some difficulty in the plot."

which is what these situations we're discussing are: plot devices

EDIT: only realized it now, it's a kilometric post >__<