[Xander]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I also respect your analysis Xander, and your insight into other angles that I often do not see.

However, we have discussed this subject at length on this forum, so as you said, there is no need to beat this horse to death.

I feel the same. As usual, I can agree with that much. Consider what I wrote to be little more than a summary of my previous positions. Given that this is the C.C. thread, after all, I'll remain relatively quiet about the whole topic of what Zero Requiem did or didn't need to accomplish, and whether or not it needed to be the most logical and rational choice. The common complaints.

We've all gone through that same old routine more than a few times, so the only thing I'd add is that I still share some of the same concerns you and azul120 have pointed out, but my opinion remains: there are a few alternative explanations and possible interpretations for many of them. They don't turn R2 into a masterpiece, by any means, but they do elevate it a few meters above failure from both a personal and critical perspective. Which is, of course, only my opinion.

Especially with the handling of main character types such as Lelouch and CC.

You won't see me arguing that having more of a focus on them and improving their overall treatment isn't a good thing.

I can already tell that, as seen through your continued analysis, the skills necessary for good orthodox storytelling should remain within your grasp.

Spoiler:

I try to view Code Geass from a writer/author's viewpoint and attempt to not make the mistakes I see in R2 in my own writing.

But alas, this is precisely one of the areas where we start to differ. It seems that, both as a skilled writer and as someone who wants to follow orthodox storytelling norms, you tend to classify as mistakes many things that, from a more liberal, skeptical and postmodernist approach, aren't necessarily condemned to be interpreted as such. Sometimes those norms are worth breaking or bending, even if that it is considered unpopular, technically incorrect or simply against tradition. Sometimes you don't win the bet, but it's worth taking that risk.

And, once again, I firmly believe that none of us can ever completely escape from subjectivity. It's part of what makes us human, among other things. You could program an advanced artificial intelligence that only writes flawless stories, according to the traditional standards of storytelling and screenwriting, but wouldn't that get boring after a while? It's an example full of hyperbole, yes, only meant for illustrating the point. In the end, I simply enjoy the sheer variety of fiction that our inherently flawed nature provides.

He was broken from the first episode and made this clear in S1 when he tells CC that his only reason for living was to destroy Britannia.

It's true that Lelouch was already broken, in a way, but not nearly to the same extent. At the beginning of the story, it's more like he saw little or no purpose in living if he couldn't do anything to change the world, so to speak, but Lelouch was still calm enough to wait for his chance to start his revenge. Essentially, C.C. and Geass only helped him speed that schedule up.

But that's little compared to his post-Euphemia suffering (which he only superficially recovered from, IMHO) and the various types of traumatic events during R2.

If anything, we see him develop numerous other reasons for choosing a different path than what he started from, especially with regard to C.C.
His promise to her alone should have been enough for him to choose a different path considering how he let both Shirley and Rolo down during R2.

He tried to believe in those reasons, but then they were taken away. Lelouch generally does not respond to trauma in a constructive fashion, other than to continue on the so-called "path of carnage" regardless. Of course, C.C. herself had the benefit of suffering from amnesia instead of dying, which is an important distinction. His relationship with her radically changed, rather than becoming the source of a mostly negative emotion (although you could, ironically, argue that the idealistic side of Zero Requiem was ultimately influenced by Shirley and Rolo, in addition to the obvious trauma from Nunnally's fake death, but that's been the topic of yet another thread).

If anything, Lelouch made C.C. care again which is why in ep. 25 she is surprised at herself for even caring whether she wins or looses against Kallen in KMF combat.

This is entirely possible, even when seen in the context of my previous analysis. You could argue C.C. ended up as a better person than what Lelouch was at that point, because she regained more and more of her basic humanity. Then again, sometimes it's a lot easier to solve someone else's problems than your own.

Spoiler:

Code Geass being an anime, it would have been best if they had explained more, and not tried to be so David Lynchian with many aspects of the story.

David Lynch can be too extreme, even for me, but yes...I wouldn't be explicitly opposed to explaining more. It just bothers me less when that doesn't happen.

I have disdain for SF that is burdened with too much drama/romance. It should be kept to a minimum, while technical details and/or background data on races, tech, and powers should be fleshed out as much as possible.

I definitely like both types of stories, as evidenced by my absolute and continued appreciation for the Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

You would be drawn-and-quartered by mouth-frothing Otaku of Gundam, SBY, and Macross if you did.

That would be an interesting way to go out, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by azul120

Amen. Taniguchi (not to be confused with the Haruhi Suzumiya character, lol) and Okouchi decided that Lelouch had to die at show's end right after they finished the first season.

I recall the idea was older than that. Taniguchi even stated they experimented with starting the series by having a flashforward of Suzaku trying to kill Lelouch.

Curiously enough, that's more or less what they eventually did...not in the show, but in the Special Edition compilations (Black Rebellion and Zero Requiem).

Speaking of which, it's interesting that they ended the second of those with a new monologue/narration from C.C. and with no epilogue sequence.