[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Yeah, that was a fun little debate, and I liked the writer of that monologue... but isn't "dozens fell" an exaggeration of... irresponsible proportions?



I think his revelation was more meta than that. It's more like he realized that it doesn't matter how ridiculous ShKanon is, because if that's the story the author finds meaningful and wants to express, then that's that; and he realized that this very concept was what Ryukishi was expressing with Umineko. Well, that's what I think. Obviously, it seemed difficult for him to put his revelation into words.

ShKanon people, although diverse themselves, all understand Umineko on some kind of meta-level. Anti-ShKanonism is the result of a deficiency in meta-understanding.



I believe it was Kyrie's dad who we're talking about, who was supposedly a decent person and a black sheep of the Sumaderas... Though I doubt he could have protected Ange from the rest of the Sumaderas like Eva could.



No knock, sure, but why no letter? The red syntax seems to imply that the letter at least exists, and there's no need doubt its existence to make the lie interpretation work, as it could have simply been written by anyone in the parlor. In fact, it would be foolish for them to lie about that letter-and-knock event and not have the necessary after-the-fact prop.



Yes, but even then who is eligible to have knocked in the hallway, 24:00 or not?



Since when was Battler all-seeing?



Don't. Those two words are often translated from the same word in the source Japanese.

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Since the overall intrigue of EP5 is being discussed and there seem to be a few new people around, I'm going to reintroduce a theory I've mentioned before (hopefully in a more organized, more convincing way).

Now, in EP5 there's that scene where Erika and Battler are in the middle of solving the epitaph and searching for the path to the gold, and then Battler has a vision of Kinzo, who points the way for him. But we also know that No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. So then we know for a fact that when Battler told Erika that "grandfather pointed the way", he was lying.

Nothing special so far, I know, since this logic was all explained as part of the EP5 ura anyway. However, if you think about what Battler was lying about, and the possible reasons for why he would lie about it, there are some very surprising implications.

First, I'll re-summarize the scene here, with the unreliable parts in gold:

Spoiler for summary:

Erika and Battler are at the chapel and just pushed in the final letter for solving the epitaph. Battler observes out loud that Erika has a crappy personality, and Erika admits this openly. Erika goes into how entertaining it will be to see the family squabble over the gold, and begins to talk about her predictions in detail. Dispirited by the revelation that the gold will lead to family infighting, Battler turns his back on her and, not listening to her "mumble on", seems to enter some kind of trance. He sees Kinzo, who points out the way to the gold to Battler. Battler falls out of his trance, just barely catching the end of Erika's spiel. Battler then says he's found the way. Erika expresses surprise that Battler was observant enough to notice the turned lion statue. Battler says that it was Kinzo who showed him.

As for what Battler is lying about, it's how he came to be aware that one of the lion statues was facing a new direction. So then here's the important question that no one seems to think about: What was Battler actually thinking and/or looking at during the above summary's gold section? And whatever it was, why did Battler lie about it?

You could suppose that he was simply contemplating the new revelation that the gold would cause problems in his family, when he coincidentally saw the lion statue turned, then mentioned it to Erika (despite having just realized that finding the gold is actually a bad thing), but since he was a bit mad at her decided to tease her a little bit by lying about having met Kinzo.

Possible, of course, but I think this theory sucks. It has too many weird jumps in Battler's thought process. So, here's the theory I like:

Spoiler for drumroll please:

Battler already knew where the gold was, but was pretending not to in front of Erika.

Thoughts?

He doesn't have to know where the Gold is.
You can actually form a sound theory about Kinzo using that red we got:

battler saw Ushiromiya Kinzo. dead or Alive does not matter No one would mistake him for another.

What I want to say is: he discorvered the corpse or something like that. We even got a hint in that regard:
At the Chapel fight between him and Dlanor, at the point where he uses the golden truth, he states that there is one body that could b kinzo's.

Don't forget the red about Kinzo has actually several consequences:
1st ) You can't msitake any object for Kinzo
2nd) You cant mistake another person for kinzo
3rd) You can't mistake Kinzo for someone else


Yet the red still allows us to have seen his corpse. Don't forget Dlanor couldn't get past the Golden truth. If the body would have never been hinted she could have simply said that the case must not be resolved with clues that were not presented in red and the golden truth would have been weaker than the red one.
As you can't mistake Kinzo for someone else, the corpse batttler talk about during the scene msut have really been Kinzo's.
Otherwise you would have needed him as a body double for someone else.

Edit: Or shanon could have moved the body as if it was alive, it would still not violate the red.