[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

causing MORE harm to MORE people under situations where its NOT necessary is immoral by definition (or its about as close to it as they come)

I never said Lelouch was a saint. Just that I find him to be more moral than most other characters.

i know you love your philosophical debates about varius views of consqutialisom and what not
but in the end, it comes down to a simple point to compare
the golden rule
treat others as you would wish them to treat you
when measured against this standard, you have a wide range of characters and positions

As long as you can't accept tha the Golden Rule isn't an ultimate moral theory, and that you have yours and I have mine, this discussion is pointless.
The Golden Rule would demand that I rescue an evil dictator if I see him drowning, because if I was in his place, I know I would want to be rescued - it would mean not saving him would be more immoral than letting his country go to hell. The Golden Rule assumes that there are only two people involved, and doesn't consider larger numbers.
I, however, subscribe to the Original Position (or, to be more precise, Impartial Position, but the difference doesn't matter here).

nunnaly (in season2, where she actually has a role in the plot) hurts no one, and treats everyone around her with kindness and respect, even when that someone is a terrorist
she actively works to improve the lives of the people under her rule, and actively stands up against people who try to harm them (like romayer)
and in general, tries to make as much good from her position of power

The question is, would she have prevented more suffering than Lelouch in the long-run? I don't think so.
And even if that was the case, Lelouch would still be more moral than her in the first season to me, since she only later on started growing a backbone.

kallen starts out fighting against britannia using means that have little effect, but she uses those means because she litteraly has no other means at that stage
she COULD just sit on the sidelines and enjoy her life as a britannian rich girl, and yet she choose to fight against the oppression that the japanese people suffer from (but which she herself does not)
she risks everything she has and gains nothing for herself, she only fights on behalf of the oppressed people of japan (both in uniform, and out of it)

Yes, Kallen is ready to sacrifice innocents for nothing without getting anything out of it (except maybe knowing she continues the work of her brother). I don't agree with that concept of justice, sorry.

and once introduced to another effective way that can promote her concept of justice WITHOUT hurting civilians as much as possible (zero) she embraces it completely, becoming his greatest supporter
and evetually, she even turns against lelouch when he starts acting like a monster despite the fact that she loves him
all because its the right thing to do, not for herself, but for the world

I never said she was a horrible person. Just that I find Lelouch to be more moral than her at the beginning of the show.

xing-ke is chinese, and hence his priority is to HIS people first
china is at war with britannia for a while, and hence he views it as his duty to protect it
he actively fights against a corruption in their own goverment that would end up trading the rightful ruler of china for status and power for the eunichs
he also has a dept of gratitude for said ruler, and hence refuses to see her traded off to britannia just so some corrupt old men would gain power from it
but he is not like lelouch in that he only thinks of the tianzi at all times
he interrupts the wedding without being sure that the tianzi would agree with him, and only gets her validation half way through
he acts in the best interests of his people first and his own personal wishs second
its only once lelouch kidnapps the tianzi that he starts becoming more worried about her
she IS the ruler of china
so worring about her and worring about china is one and the same

If you worry about one country, and let the rest go to hell, that's not perfect, either. Lelouch and Xing-Ke simply had completely different things to deal with, and different priorities.
Maybe Lelouch's motives were less altruristic, but motives alone don't decide what is moral for me.