[Clarste]

Originally Posted by arias

I'm saying I think it precludes herself -- I have no idea whether the author means it to be so. Let's take this back to controlling reality + controlling fate..


In terms of the show, Haruhi's rewriting of reality consists of the composition of the world. That is, the nature of the world and perhaps even its history can be rewritten... (I know this might go against my previous post, but patience! I am no genius ) Such that, she can shape the world into her wishes or expectations.. which is why the Kyon + Haruhi arc at the end of Novel vol 1 (also alluded to in episode 4; the baseball episode).


Controlling FATE, however, is a very tricky issue. Let's keep in mind first that despite Haruhi's speculated ability to shape reality and her state of Godhood, she does not seem to have control over the actions of others -- she does not puppet-string Kyon, Yuki and the others. Obviously this could be because she is unaware of her powers..

Anyways, regarding fate, let's just approach this from a deterministic model. Because "fate" (or fatalism") usually implies a destiny -- a plan of some sort. It's more often utilized in theistic circles because the omniscience of God implies that (1) he knows everything (2) everything is planned. A totally deterministic model makes no such deductions, just that (1) everything now is because of everything that has transpired. Anyways, applying it to Haruhi:


Haruhi changes reality from State A to State B --> this is determined


Note that to further illustrate the meta-control that real deterministic models exert, I'll bring up a common flaw.. In some movies or shows, or even in real-life, people sometimes say: "This is your fate, don't fight it." ... This happens even in some shows where there's a fate engine or some BS of the sort. However..


X fights "fate" --> this is determined


That is, a person's refusal to accept what is "determined" IS determined. That is, the "determined" in double apostrophes is just a pseudo-determinism.




That is why, saying that Haruhi has control over "fate", or has deterministic control over all of reality is something of a mistake.. Let me try my best to more clearly communicate this. Okay, let's do a counterfactual. Let us pretend that Haruhi has control over fate...


Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y"


However, is THIS written above, fated by itself? Do you get what I mean?

Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y" --> Fated?


The logical consequence of this is -

If yes, it was fated that she changed X to Y, then she does not really have control over fate -- it's "pseudo-fate"

If no, it wasn't fated, then it is hard to imagine there was any "fate" at all in the first place to speak of.

Yes. But, these leads to another point. Basically, if fate exists, no one controls it because, as you show, that defies the definition of fate. If fate doesn't exist, no one controls it because it doesn't exist. Therefore, it logically impossible for anything, ever, to control fate.

So, yes, I guess I was mistaken in saying her power is indistiguishable from controlling fate. However, the orginal point I had was that this does not make her different from a god. A god couldn't control fate either, because it's just logically impossible to control fate. She's still in the same boat as an omnipotent god. A god's actions are predetermined in the exact same sense. A god cannot change fate, because fate cannot be changed. I suppose they could create fate from nothing, but Haruhi is also speculated to have created everything from nothing, and therefore fate at the same time. Haruhi's powers are still the powers of a god.

Ah, I'm so weak in arguments like this. So now I'm saying "Everything I said in the first place was wrong, but now I shall use what you said to prove my original point, so I'm still right, haha!" Sorry.