[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

very true, but there are also plenty of pain's abilities that naruto didn't know about either. nobody bothered to tell him that pain could create a MOON for instance...

True. Naruto did know enough to not get completely destroyed, but you're right on that.

i'm still not seeing anything wrong or unfair about this. nagato's real body was far away and hidden.

I didn't call it wrong or unfair. On the contrary, it was smart of Naruto to prepare like that, given the failure of syncing with Pa and Ma like Jiraiya did. It is, however, pre-battle planning that helped influence the fight's outcome. That's all I was saying.

well i guess we have to agree to disagree on this point. i say its his power level, you dont. it doesn't discount the fact that the first 5 pains were beaten by SM naruto (no questions here hopefully). then deva pain was killed by regular naruto with a rasengan. so even if we go with your opinion on the 9tails not being naruto's power, then it still only served as a chakra drainer on pain. it was a conscious naruto who beat the last path.

Agree to disagree sounds good here. At the end of the day you're right that it is Naruto's power (in the sense that it is power he theoretically can use), but I still think whether or not he has control over it is important.

And as far as I know, it was never up for debate that Naruto won the battle against Pain. It would be stupid to claim he didn't. But then, Sasuke won the battle against Itachi too, and that doesn't by any stretch make Sasuke the stronger (though admittedly, the conditions of their battle were different). I was under the impression that the argument was that Naruto winning does not immediately make him the stronger of the two.

Personally, I like what somebody else said on the subject: If you were to put Naruto and the Six Paths in an isolated area and pit them against one another, with no pre-planning and zero knowledge of eachother's abilities, Pain would win with ease.

its true that juugo doesn't have a second consciousness, but if you think that it matters for it to only be one consciousness that dictates these power rankings, then you should discount killerbee regardless of who is in control.

I'm not saying there can only be one consciousness, I'm saying that actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other. Killer Bee is different in the sense that his consciousness retains complete control over any transformation. In the case of Juugo, as I said, all that changes is that he goes berserk. It's still him in that case.