[LoveMeKags]

Spoiler for to magnus (I'm saving space):

Originally Posted by magnuskn

First, do research where? I said it in my last post, I'll say it again: Alto really did not have access to a lot of information and the people who knew more than him were unwilling to share their information with him.

Um, Michael and Klan had no problem doing research on the public computer for information about Grace and Sheryl. They even found hardcore evidence that Grace was a member of the 117 Research Fleet.

However, as a small note, I think they should have told him.

Secondly, even if we go by the standard that he could have done some research, the same goes for everyone else in the show. I won't blame him for a lack of curiousity if that same lack is universal to the other characters ( who are not in on the conspiracy ).

Except quite a few of the characters, like Ozma, Ranka, and Sheryl, did not want to involve Alto in the problems going on.

Ozma seemed to want to involve Alto with Ranka more by requesting he protect her. However, from that episode on, it seems like Ozma has little intention to involve Alto - a boy no less - in a war with his own government. He's not too quick to label Alto as a rebel, rogue, pirate, or betrayer. Instead, he's doing just like he did with Ranka and thinks keeping facts and knowledge to himself is better than stating his outright intentions.

Ranka didn't want to involve Alto because even she didn't know how to explain her side of the information. Memories once again aren't written facts and so she cannot talk about it like she knows the whole truth, especially when she's been diagnosed with amnesia. People might not take her seriously or even understand her words. They might even put her on drugs, thinking she's ill. So she holds information to herself.

Sheryl didn't want to involve Alto from the start. When Galaxy is attacked, he has to find out from the S.M.S. even though she knows he's a pilot (or has suspicion of it). But later on, when she knows about his job, and develops feelings for him, she still doesn't involve him in important matters. She doesn't tell him about her illness nor that she was summoned by Mishima once Ranka left. Instead, he finds out from other sources about all of this.

I find that all the characters not talking to one another led to a war more than just the enemy. Because false facts were spread around by Mishima and those with information about the true enemy failed to convey any information (aside from Ranka, whom once again didn't know much herself), the war hit an all-time high.

Once again, it's not something unique to Alto. A lot of people ask questions about Brera and his magic fighter. Then he joins Frontier in episode 14 and everybody just shuts up about it.

The problem is that this whole plot thread is dropped completely after that. After Brera becomes Rankas bodyguard and Alto and him have their short confrontation, nobody asks him anymore about what the hell he was doing shooting down SMS planes for shit'n giggles.

I put two quotes in one to save space.

Actually, no. It is unique to Alto.

For one, when Brera states he's a member of Galaxy, why isn't he with the Galaxy Fleet? It wasn't that long ago that Galaxy came under attack by the Vajra and I'm sure they still need repair and protection. So why is Brera coming to the aid of others when he is an elite who should be back at Galaxy protecting them? That is the biggest thing that slips by Alto.

Meanwhile, Michael and Ozma (each on their own) are starting to sum up their own theory of Brera and Grace's involvement in both the Galaxy portion of the story and the current story. What's stopping Alto, whom has openly admitted to wanting to be an adult, from doing the same and trying to come up with his own theories?

This is why I say that he just allows people to pull him along in the plot. If you say once again that there's no information, Ozma and Catherine, Michael and Klan barely had information to go by but yet they still researched and found evidence to prove their cases. Alto does not do so. And so, if you once again say that it's not his fault, then you would be making the character kinda shallow given that all of the evidence he needs has been played before his very eyes.

Furthermore, Grace was Sheryls manager since her arrival on Frontier. That she was "rescued" by Brera on Gallia IV should raise some eyebrows, but then again it seems to fall under the sudden cut-off about Breras actions before episode 14.

You know, I thought about that later too.

It should have raised eyebrows. But it was swept under the rug. Hell, I didn't think she was rescued by Brera. I thought she was just reinstalled on Galaxy and headed back to Frontier with her own ship or something. That cut scene really made it weird.

Grace becoming Rankas manager? Leon inviting Ranka to meet with him? All legitimate government actions, later vindicated by Ranka becoming officially named as the one to save Frontier, even by President Glass.

Actually, the timeline of when this all happened was after she was captured and rescued from the Vajra, at the timeline of 15. I find that rather suspicious considering all of a sudden the government shows interest in Ranka personally instead of the whole group whom were present. Protocol usually works that you summon the one most useful. However, in this case, to Alto, it should be a big-ass question: "what do you want her for?" He hasn't seen what her songs can do to the Vajra yet. He doesn't see any logical reason except that she was kidnapped by the Vajra. That fact alone should make him say "no" to that request.

I hate to sound like an actual person when I say this: but when the government summons someone who's been in the enemy's grasp previously but has no military ability, you have to question what their reasons are.

Once again, there was no proof at that point in the series that Ranka's songs could do anything at all to the Vajra. So Alto should have questioned Mishima's desire to talk with Ranka. I mean, the timing in which the event took place was a little too convenient.

As for the whole Grace bit: I saw Sheryl growing suspicious of Grace in 15. It was obvious that something was up. However, that suspicion holds true in 18, when she confronts Grace. However, when Grace became Ranka's manager, it was so abrupt after Mishima's plan was set in motion that it made some heads turn, but not Alto.

And another thing: no one questioned why when Ranka and Brera left, Grace also disappeared from Frontier. I happened to notice that little piece but forgot to insert it.

Given that people are dying while you finding your own understanding of what you really feel about this new found connection? Yeah, I think she better talk to someone, instead of keeping it to herself.

I refer to after 13. When she remembered pieces and bits of her past in 14, she didn't understand them. Her look on life was: "what is my purpose here?"

Regardless on whether or not she should talk about it, given the situation, she didn't know what was truth or lies. A person with amnesia saying she has a connection to the Vajra and was born on Galia 4, even was able to motivate the Vajra by singing, would immediately put her in the looney bin. I hate to say that but it's one thing when a normal person says "I have proof" or "I've been there" but when someone with amnesia says it out of the clear blue after being kidnapped by said enemy in 14, it kinda doesn't help her case at all.

And I'm sure that's what she's also thinking about. Talking about her connection to those around her might get her thrown into the looney bin because they all care about her and want to see her healthy. However, that won't help them one bit. She doesn't want to be a burden anymore (and that she says to Ozma in 16) and so she keeps it to herself and tries to solve it on her own.

I consider it both a brave plan of action and a stupid one at the same time. But considering her state of mind and the situation, I find it hard to call it actually stupid but rather rash.

Sometimes I wonder about you Ranka fans. Saying that Ranka just wanted to figure it out by herself and kept this vital information to herself because of that makes her much more callous than what motivations I ascribe to her.

But if you don't think in her shoes instead of being the therapist yourself, then of course she'll seem that way. You have to think of yourself in her shoes at that direct moment with her same problem, and then think what would happen if you spoke out given the fact you have been diagnosed with a memory problem before?

Like I said above, the actions taken were both brave and rash. Albeit, also a little selfless.

Maybe we are talking about two different things at this moment? I'm not talking about the Galaxy plot, but rather about basic stuff like "Hey, the Vajra queen showed me an image of a human woman and talked to me through it. She sang my own song to me!". I think that would be of interest to the government of Frontier and the military.

But as I said, it's just brushed over on all sides, so I actually don't think the blame falls on Ranka, but on some shoddy plotting for that particular part of the story.

I thought you were referring to the whole plot in general.

I explained about Ranka above so I won't rewrite it.

Fair enough, good reasoning.

I think that's why I love Ozma so much, because he takes on ideals of SDF. If only Michael had lived long enough to show himself do so as well. He started to in 18... so sad.

I see no evidence at all that Frontier attacked first, and two pieces of evidence that they did not. The conspirators talked about leading the Vajra to Frontier and in the first episode President Glass' dialogue indicates that Frontier had not met the Vajra before.

It's my assumption that Frontier attacked first. Given that Glass says "so they've finally found this fleet" means they heard reports of others being attacked. So once again, Galaxy's S.O.S. reaches Frontier, they ignore it, and attack the Vajra outright because they perceive them as enemies given past reports.

It's not about whether they've seen the Vajra before or the Vajra have been to Frontier, that is moot and already discussed, it's about what actions Frontier took and the dialogue spoken. Glass made it very clear that they'd received information about past attacks by saying "this fleet."

His words hold my theory on Frontier attacking first.

By the way, in 1, they show one of the droids being lost that they sent out. Right beforehand, there was a jamming signal. There is no actual proof that the soldier died nor that he didn't attack. So it proves once again that my theory may be correct.

Hm, maybe you can expound on what you exactly refer to, when you say "If he didn't want to lose Sheryl, he had to say something; but he didn't"? I cannot associate at the moment your sentence with any appropiate situation.

In 22, when she is crying and all, instead of stating his feelings outright then, he merely holds her and promises to stay by her side. He doesn't outwardly state any feelings but rather promises to be by her side. He doesn't even say he wants to nor does he address any deeper feelings for her. It all appears, to the blind eye, to be out of obligation: she helped him now he does same for her. That is why later, Sheryl says she doesn't want him to be burdened with her. Because he hasn't stated it's what he wants nor that he wants to be by her for a specific reason (love or otherwise), she doubts his conviction to be merely pity.

Which point? Otherwise, it seems we agree here.

It's over the stem of episodes, from 15 to 21.

And considering the fact that from 15 to 17, Ranka did not understand anything herself, 18 should've been her time to talk to someone. However, in 18, there was a lot going on otherwise. From 19 to 20, she had no time to react truthfully to say "I remembered something really important" giving the time of events. I'm sure you've heard the expression "really bad timing." And I don't mean the rooftop scene but rather the Vajra's abrupt appearance. In 21, however, Alto was bound to not take her memories seriously given all that has happened in the previous episodes listed above. And so, she holds it to herself. There is no way she could tell Alto anything without being thrown in the looney bin or being called crazy, or the latter, executed for being connected to the Vajra. That is my point entirely.

In my opinion, Alto's lack to rise up and ask Ranka about the current events despite her not seeming to want to do so is very shallow of his character. He's also questioned his friend's well being even if they don't want to talk about it. I have to say that he's very OOC in that scene where he just agrees to stay by Ranka's side instead of questioning her feelings, especially with Nanase in a coma.

As I said, it's complex. I already did talk a lot about that in the past, but writing it all up in one big post would take a lot of time. Suffice to say, both of them have complex feelings about the whole thing.

I won't ask for details then.

I do ask what the "whole thing" is when I refer to "Alto confessing love to Sheryl," as in 22, not onward towards dealing with the war in general.

Outside of episode 23 and episode 19, I don't see many situations where Sheryl stops Alto from asking further questions. And there is a lot of development between those episodes, she had different and valid motivations both times.

23 is a good example, actually it's the best. She acts like she doesn't want to be a burden but then doesn't attempt to share his burden.

22 is another good example. Alto dares to take on Sheryl's burden and support her. Why does Sheryl not do the same for Alto in this case? He's a soldier, a pilot, and needs to fight the war, but she should share his burden, his feelings, and the demons he has. But she does neither. Instead, she allows herself to feel loved.

I understand that at this point, she was dying, but if she really doesn't want to be a burden, she should share her burden but also carry his as well since he is doing the same for her. It's like they say "I'll do something for you, you do something for me." But in relationships, when two people share the burden, it's easier to live on because you know you're not the only one being weighed down by the world. However, in this case, Alto does feel that way because Sheryl doesn't share his burden. Instead, he is shouldering her burden alone.

Past episodes really don't validate it because the discussion is about after the events of 22 anyway, as it has been mentioned before.

And just to let you know, I don't mean to sound as if I'm calling Sheryl shallow here. It seems to me that Sheryl doesn't understand how relationships work and so I have to say she's new to the experience. Relatively, I can't blame her entirely...

Alto himself is not very open about his feelings in the series, so I think it is more of a situation where he himself doesn't feel like talking abouthis own feelings.

...because part of this is true. But also, I said above, Sheryl never asked Alto to share his burden with her. 22 is a good example and followed by 23 and 24 (the episode in which she asked him to say nothing in response). Alto's metaphor is not sharing his burden nor expressing his feelings but rather stating what he's come to realize about himself. It doesn't express his feelings towards the war nor Sheryl and Ranka in particular, and therefore she cannot share his burden.

I find that the final episodes really don't help Alto and Sheryl's relationship very much because this communication falls apart.

Well, I think Sheryl here was a victim of the writers wanting to show a funny scene of the big arrogant idol being bested at her own game, by someone who is an even bigger celebrity.

But taken the scene as presented, it's entirely possible that Sheryl saw what had just happened between Ranka and Miranda and was just dishing out some swift justice.

That's why I say I like it.

To do proper research, you need sources. There were none. Unless the Galaxy conspirators like to plan their nefarious undertakings publicly.

Once again, then how did Michael and Klan find evidence that Grace was part of 117, that Sheryl was a part of the project herself? Through a freaking computer in their public library!

So there are sources but others like Alto ain't looking. Instead, he's too busy burying himself in other problems.

Because the Macross franchise has gone with the non-obvious person as the winner of a romantic triangle a few times in its existance, I think that it would be hasty making any predictions based on what is normal nowadays in Japanese anime.

Heck, Misa was a bit of a shock at first, but then again, I disliked Hikaru's overall character. But the triangles in existence also are moot when it comes to Frontier, especially because the war is different and the sequence of events to play out, including the plot, are completely different from past Macross'. That being said, there's no way to compare them.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Edit: I'm wondering if this discussion should move threads since it's tending towards the series... although then again it could swing back and moving things between threads can make things hard to follow.

Even if we moved it to the appropriate thread, the discussion might be completely lost. We can't exactly move the whole discussion to said appropriate thread. And since it's such a long discussion now, I'm sure we'd get lost.