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Originally Posted by Kealym

Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.

Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986.

And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems.

... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience.

Yes, I also thought so.

Originally Posted by Kealym

i don't think I'm missing any point at all by questioning the plausibility of leading a double life. I understand the gameboards need not reflect reality entirely, but, I mean ... there is clearly some intent to at least stay within the bounds of what reality was kinda sorta like. It's basically a huge plot hole, and lazy writing.

Surely the whole thing isn't planned very well as we're given no hints about how Yasu managed such a thing. She's pretty young and, although Shannon might not spend all her time on Rokkenjima, her spare time should be also spent at school where Jessica also is, leaving her very short time to play the role of Kanon.
Not mentioning that apparently in Prime nothing came up about Kanon not being real/being a completely unknwon guy, which means the other workers likely confirmed there was a Kanon guy working in Rokkenjima who should also have some documents proving his existence. We're told servants, among them, didn't call themselves with their blessed names so the other servants should know which was Kanon's name but even if they didn't likely the police could ask the orphanage which were the orphans sent to the Ushiromiya.
Male servants were a bit of uncommon so it shouldn't be impossible to figure out if 'Yoshiya' existed and if it didn't it should raise suspicions.

Basically, Umineko first seems done as if the people had more chances to solve the gameboard than the police has to solve prime but then, if you think at it, the police might have had much more leads than us that would point at Shannon and Kanon. Maybe they would still not solve the whole thing but surely those two would look a lot more suspicious than they did to us.

A theory I also played with is that only on the gameboard Shannon and Kanon were the same person while in Prime they were different people and for some reason Yasu projected on herself Kanon in her tales but, if that was the plan, personally I don't like it much.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Hence the quotation marks.
Jessica didn't die in the confrontation but George did and herself having died at a later point perhaps due to injuries.

This would generate a story with a second culprit... it's not that's impossible but I don't think that's what Yasu had in mind.

I wonder if she had in mind the backstory of one of Christie's mysteries in which a person she knew asked her to write him inside her story as the culprit because the culprit is the most interesting character in a mystery.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Perhaps thats what actually went down in EP 4 where Jessica and George "killed" each other?

As in it wasn't:
Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap but simply Jessica vs George.

And perhaps Jessica knew about Yasu.
Didn't she went along with Nanjo to "treat" Kanon in EP1?

Yes, but likely she saw nothing or she would have noticed he wasn't hurt... or, he could have waved it off saying they were preparing a trap for the culprit and he faked being hurt and to please pretend he'd been injuried (it would be sort of weak though as he would become very suspicious when people would continue to die but maybe love would made Jessica that blind or she never dared to voice her suspicions).

Also there was nothing to see that would point out at Kanon being Shannon as Shannon has no breasts so if she were to see Kanon without a shirt he wouldn't have looked suspicious. Things would have probably been different if Shannon had been in Kanon's place...

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Was Jessica really as interested in Yasu as she seems to be in the gameboards, though? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Since Kanon is mostly portrayed as never actually pursuing his chance at love, I think it's probably more like Yasu felt something for Jessica and had suspicions that she might have felt something back, but that they never actually talked about it and it never really went anywhere.

I think that Jessica was interested in Kanon... Yasu might have, at best, mistaken the strenght of Jessica's interest. Jessica is, after all, looking out for a boyfriend and she's trying to build something with Kanon that looks more like getting close as friends at the moment.
We can't really say if, in the long run, Jessica would be willing to start a permanent relation with Kanon as Kanon deliberately doesn't allow the two of them to get close.
Even if Kanon were to allow it, Jessica might discover that she doesn't like him much... unless he plays the Shannon card and tries to adapt to her as Shannon seems to try to do with George, accepting his wishes without ever telling how she wanted things to be between the two of them.

And do I remember wrong or in EP 6 it was said that, were Jessica the one to win the duel she and Kanon would grow closer and the thing is described as basically Kanon entering in Jessica's world of interests (studying music for example) but not with Jessica entering in Kanon's world (whatever that world included?).

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Kinzo managed to hide a Mansion, 10 tons of gold, and two Beatrices, for way way way longer.
Natsuhi and Krauss are managing to hide the death of Kinzo. Hell the moment we accepted Kinzo as being already dead, Shkanon shouldn't have been a stretch to accept.
Not to mention that Battler being Kyrie's son was hidden from them, or that Krauss never learned about the man from 19 years ago.
Who'd be more suspicious? You go to see your grandfather, and don't get to see him for two years in a row, and you're going to demand to see two random servants at the specific same time because you think there's something up with them?

To be honest it's implied the siblings only went to see Kinzotwice in those years after kinzo's death, one being the time of the Rokkenjima incident and they all were suspicious about Kinzo not being really alive.

I'm sure Jessica might have found the thing odd as well but since the fact she couldn't see grandad was a lie supported by everyone she loved she likely preferred to believe it to be true than accept that Kinzo was dead and everyone was lying to her about it.

Also Krauss knew about the baby, Natsuhi told him and Rosa discovered the secret mansion, over which everyone had suspicious as Kinzo's wife was used to have her kids search for him when he disappeared.

In Ep 8 is also implied that Asumu might have found out that Battler wasn't her kid.

So, as you see, many of the other crazy stuffs weren't blindly accepted.

ShKanon is odd because Shannon and Kanon are never doubted yet all the suspicious things that should be obvious about them are never discussed by the other characters.

Originally Posted by Renall

Kinzo's activities are equally as stupid and bad as Shkanon and are equally implausible. At least the ep7 stuff. The hidden mansion I can buy nobody knowing about while Kinzo was in control of the family. Once Krauss was even nominally in charge, he should've immediately known about the place. But the gold and explosives? Ludicrous. Their existence doesn't make Shkanon any better, it just makes Ryukishi more of a hack.

Yes, most of Ep 7 backstory seems weak. Sometimes I wonder if we should consider it similar to Yasu's backstory, a tale that wasn't exactly honest but more like an interpretation of the truth (after all it was said in red that Kinzo wasn't so pure as he painted himself to be during the whole gold mess with the Japanese and the Italians and it was implied that the commander he disliked so much might have been a better person).

The fact Krauss never found out about Kuwadorian also seems pretty weird.

Originally Posted by Renall

The baby swap with Rudolf is dumb and seemingly pointless, but I can accept that it's possible if he really wants it to happen and has enough money. That Kyrie wouldn't know is another matter, but Battler takes after his father's side of the family (he's said to resemble Kinzo in his youth), so how is Kyrie going to suspect he's her son if she doesn't live with him and he doesn't resemble her? Of course, there's no purpose to the baby swap or Kyrie being his mother, so God only knows why this is in there to begin with.

I agree. Rudolf could have divorced from Asumu and married Kyrie if the baby was the problem. After all he'll always remain pretty close to Kyrie and he'll even complain about asumu not being as perfect as she painted herself to be (though honestly if I had been in her place and I were to find out what he did I would seriously consider strangling him with my bare hands).

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Well prime remains a fiction anyway. If someone tried to make me believe a murder spree such as the ones in Umineko including the letters and fake murders and all even without Shkanon I'd have quite a hard time believing any of it.

Still I guess I was overall trying to make two points.
1) There are other things like Shkanon, even if we dislike them, I don't think we should've been surprised or discarded it considering everything else.
2) Shkanon has one big advantage next to most other things that were hidden : nobody is specifically looking into it or has any reasons to. Compared to Kinzo's status or the gold, especially if as you say most of the time Kanon existed the sibblings have been thinking about Kinzo's life/death status, I don't think it's such a stretch to accept it.

Uhm... the fact there are other things that are hard to believe doesn't make ShKanon more believable.
The problem might be that each of us might accept to suspend his disbelief for 1 or more of them but the whole of them look really too much for many of us.
Maybe not each of us choose ShKanon as the most unbelievable but this doesn't mean it turns as believable, just that other people focused more on other things.