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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Mikuru's people WISH time is predestined. They are horrified at the possibility that it might not be, as what seemed like "freedom" to you is "total erasure" for those who live in the future.
That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE.
Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make.
The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all?
Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.
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So how do you have a closed time loop without fixed time? If time isn't fixed, then future events are caused by present or past events. In other words, for something in the the future to occur, it MUST be preceded by something in the past. However, a true closed loop would require simultaneity. If a bike wheel spins, the top part of it goes down at exactly the same time and rate as the bottom part goes up. It's fixed. Neither motion causes the other; they're intertwined as part of a single structure.
You say that the existence of a future doesn't invalidate someone's choices; I disagree. If there is only one action a person will EVER take in a given situation (which would be the only way to have a static future), then they don't have a choice. You're right, there would be no point in preventing Mikuru from slipping up, but the time travelers will do it anyway. They can never do anything else. Furthermore, what would be the point of Yuki locking herself out of the future if the end results are the same? Why not have the additional knowledge from knowing the future if it's not going to change anything?
If I hand you a complete map and say, "You can name this city whatever you want, as long as it's Atlanta," you really don't have a choice, do you? The fact that the map exists precludes your having any freedom in your decision.
Incidentally, you've hit upon the main reason why time travel is fundamentally flawed. "If the future is changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE." Exactly! So the very fact that they exist means that the future can't change! It's one giant closed time loop, one giant fixed entity. The time travelers don't need to wish that the future is fixed, because it must be. This really begs the question of why they time travel at all? Without their influence, the past is the past. It's unchangeable, and they're protected.
Oh, Haruhi is exempt? Well, the only reason for that is because SOMEONE was dicking around and took Kyon back in time. Disappearance made it clear that even with his influence, Haruhi wasn't necessarily going to go to North High. She might have ended up normal. So why introduce the extra stimulus at all?
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny
I don't think anyone is arguing this stuff as feasible. "Logic" is a different story, as most good time travel fiction is based on some degree of logical progression. Granted, it's some twisted, abnormal logic, but is often internally consistent.
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Well, we lose the internal consistency when Kyon goes back in time to stop Yuki and succeeds, especially if you've already agreed to play by the rules that have been set down earlier (allowing the existence of closed loops and such). Kyon from the alternate universe prevented Yuki from creating that alternate universe, and we have the grandfather paradox.
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny
I said "being able to exist before one's birth", not "one's existence". That is a huge distinction.
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Then I see no way that you can make that allowance. While it's not impossible to exist prior to your birth, it IS impossible to influence that birth in any way. Completely throwing away the genetic issues that would make fathering yourself a statistical impossibility (have you ever seen someone with a kid or grandkid EXACTLY like them?), the influence of your existence in the past, especially as far as family goes, would alter conditions too much for the time travel to be consistent. If it truly was a closed loop, then we have all the problems I listed above with such things.
ONE FINAL EDIT:
The fact that the things we're talking about are described as paradoxes (ontological paradox, predestination paradox, grandfather paradox) means that they all cause problems logic is unable to resolve. Do they make for good reading and an entertaining movie? No question. It's just that these things are
not possible, whether in fiction or reality. If they were defensible, they wouldn't be paradoxes. If the logic worked, they wouldn't be paradoxes. However, no one has been able to make a convincing argument against the paradoxical nature of plot devices like these, and that's really not going to change on an internet forum.