[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Wow, this thread blew up a bunch while I was sleeping.

I don't have time to say much, but I'll say I think you're severely misreading Kirito's and Asuna's reactions in episode 14. They aren't sympathizing with Kayaba's dream. They are empathizing with it. The dream itself was never evil. Only the methods used to achieve it.

No, they went beyond just trying to understand him; with their words it seemed as though they were trying to give him final comfort and actually reflect his feelings; the same feelings that drove him to trap 10,000 poeple in a death game. This is further emphasized by the fact they they show not the slightest bit of negative emotion for him. Frankly, most anyone else would atleast be quite upset with him.

And again, that they had just won, saving the lives of the 6000 other people at the cost of their own. Kirito volunteered to fight Kayaba then and there, he knew full well what he was getting into and what the consequences might be for himself.

So? That doesn't make what Kayaba did any better.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

So just because Kirito's the main character of the story that means what Kayaba was doing is villainous? Try looking at it from Kayaba's perspective for once, if he was killed by anyone that would completely destroy all of his ideals and his world along with it. He only came to the conclusion that Kirito needed to be killed in order to defend himself and his world.

The "creating and preserving a world" goal is not villainous. Folks are just using the excuse that people have died for the sake creating this "world" as a means to label him as a villain.

In correct. Kayaba specifically designed his world to be deleted with him and he had the power of immortality in the world that could keep him alive. If all he wanted to do was preserves his world, he would not included a code to destory the world, nor would he remove his immortality. What does this tell us? Dying was PART of goals. He Knew dying was an option and was fully prepared and ready for it. He wanted to tell an epic story where the hero fights and villain and knew full well what that meant for him. He was protecting nothing; he was just roleplaying

I wonder if you can give an example of an MMORPG without boss fights? Because I seriously doubt that's likely.

Off the top of my head I can not, but just because every game includes them doesn't make them a requirement. Leveling itself is also not a requirement but mmorpg's have gone without.

Then everyone would just leave on their own, making his hopes for a "world" entirely pointless. He needed to be able to keep the people in there somehow. Threat of death is unfortunately one of the most efficient things because humans have a self-preservation instinct.

How? I said the floors would be unlocked and never said the exit would be unlocked. Kayaba didn't have to give them a way to escape, he did not have togive them a reason to risk their lives against incredibly strong and deadly bosses. He could have simply locked up the world and thrown away the key. They would be trapped and forced to just live in his world

But by creating a "world", doesn't that give people an opportunity to make new hopes, dreams, family and friends? Hell it happened with Kirito, he made many new friends and even met the love of his life here. And there was a question that was posed partway though, "once the people get used to it, why would they even want to go back to the real world in he first place?"

Perhaps, but it comes at the costs of everything they once had, and everything they could have had had they never got trapped in the game. Its a high price that everyone was FORCED to pay... and those 4000 that died didn't get new dreams and memories as their lives came to a very premature end. Heck Asuna herself showed us why they could not just stay there since they were all actually sleeping on hositoal beds being kept alive through life support. And even if poeple got used to it, they WOULD still want to go back if they could as they never wanted to leave in the first place; they will never forget the friends and family that was stolen from them. That's why kayaba knew that the offer a freedom would drive them to risk their lives; their former lives and freedom were THAT valuable.

And his only reason for proposing people they could escape by reaching the top floor was because if he didn't it's likely everyone would have just cowered in the starting city. He needed people to go out and think less of this place as "prison" and more of a "world".

Not likely... eventually people would get bored and that would lead to them looking for something to do, which they might find plenty to do if they could go to any floor. Kinda like that Fisherman guy; he wasn't out fighting monsters, he just found a spot to go fishing all day. Heck Kayaba could have even made the world a lot less dangerous by making the monsters no more dangerous than most common animals. Its possible to die, but not as likely. There was no reason for this world to be as lethal as it was.

No. His goal was to create a "world". That's all it was. You're just saying he was playing with people's lives because you want to make your point that he's an "irredeemable monster" correct. Sure his "I don't really remember" line was kind of bullshit, but that hardly suggests him being a guy playing games with people's lives.

As explained there was no reason for the death game; no reason for the bosses, no reason for the grand prize of freedom at the end, no reason to actively encourage players to risk their lives, or even reason to make the world as dangerous as it was. There was also no reason for him to became a guild leader in the world with the aim of revealing himself to be the final boss once they got to the top; he himself took a role in manipulating them to keep them fighting. He could have had a world without these elements, but he included them. As Clarste said, Kayaba wasn't just creating a world he was creating a narrative; one he knew would lead to the deaths of many poeple. Thousands of deaths to fulfill his desires

Also if his goal was to play with lives as you say, wouldn't he be entertained by it? He's never shown any satisfaction or amusement towards anyone dying. A person entertained by this wouldn't just go "meh, whatever".

Who says he wasn't entertained. Not every game makes a person smile and laugh. I mean when I play an rpg i don't actually look like I'm enjoying myself, but I am(the look on my face says "meh, whatever", but in truth I am enjoying it). I might enjoy the combat system, enjoy the strategy in battle and I could be intrigued by the story. Not every game is gonna make me laugh out loud or have me grinning from ear to ear, or even spark my competitive side. Heck, think about when someone is playing a puzzle game; number one look their might be frustration, but that doesn't mean they are not enjoying themselves. Heck people get scared watching scary movies, you think they are not entertained just because they are not laughing? Or hell, what about crying; I absolutely love it when a movie makes me so sad I want to cry. There are MANY ways to get satisfation out of game, some which are more obvious than others.

Oh he would need to be punished yes indeed, but at the same time I would give him the opportunity for redemption because he shows the promise of doing so. (And in fact, has already done so in the series' storyline.)


Overall it just seems to me you can't empathize with Kayaba's goal to "create a world". Death is something necessary in a world so it needed to be there. Struggle is something necessary in a "world" so it needed to be there. You know what? The good things about a "world" were there too, and Kirito even experienced it himself first hand. I'd say if you were in Kayaba's "world" and all you saw was a "death game devised by some human monster", then you're completely missing the point.

I understand full well the desire to make a world. But not only does his desires not excuse the inhuman things he did, his actions and choices says he was doing MORE than just make a world...

This scene is perfect for the debate at hand. Thank you sir.~

Yes it is; perfect for showing why Kayaba should be "deleted"


Though it's an imperfect example. First off the murderous doctor in that scene killed thousands of people but supposedly he did it for good reasons. What he did was immoral and unethical, but he ultimately had good intentions in that he knew his research would more than make up for all the harm he caused and go on to help millions. You can see why people would condemn him, but you can also see how some might try to defend his actions. It makes his situation more complicated... Kayaba however, had only selfish reasons for what he did. He created his own personal world which included the suffering of 10,000 innocent people and toyed with their lives for his own personal satisfaction. How can you defend such a pure act of selfishness?


Futharmore, the scene shows the intense tension that the doctor feels as he considers what the murderous doctor says. He see's some logic in what he says, but his feelings for what he has done can not be ignored and it causes inner conflict for him. Kirito showed no such inner conflict when he met with kayaba in ALO... like i said, meetings like this are complicated as new and old feelings conflict; if he helps you out and you hate the guy for what he did in the past, you won't know whether to thank him or punch him in the face... to not have that sense of tension means to ignore the horrible things he's done in the past