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Renegade334 · 2010-12-12, 10:15

The M4/M16 vs. AK47 debate has been hashed, rehashed, killed and buried a long time ago. Aside from fanboys and hardliners spouting their usual "take this one it rules because I'm the one saying it", the general consensus is that both rifles have their advantages and flaws (M16 wins on range and accuracy, whereas AK47 wins on stopping power and resilience) and there's no real winner. It's actually all up to the shooter.

M16s have come a long ways since Vietnam. Yes, the US know that because of the propellant ONCE used in the 5.56x45mm rounds, the gas impingement tube could get clogged up with soot. No longer. This is no news - in fact, partway through the VN war, the US forces started issuing new cleaning protocols to ensure that the rifles were properly maintained. Earlier advertisements claimed that the M16 was a "self-cleaning rifle" and that had disastrous consequences. Now everyone knows that if you're not careful and don't clean up every once in a while, the rifle will jam. Heck, recent studies even incriminated the 30-round ammo mags and compelled groups like PEO Soldier to fix the issues. All rifles are not immune against jamming - US and British forces realized in the Middle East when they realized that talcum-thin dust and sand penetrated pretty much everything and could do serious damage. Even an AK47 can fall victim to it and it never was a stranger to jamming, despite its reputation. Some models could easily encounter what we call "stovepipe jams" - though they're pretty much easy to clear and do not require disassembly.

As for the AN-94 which was mentioned earlier, well, yes, it's powerful but its internal layout is complicated enough (since it has that two-round fast-tracking system) that the Russian Federation prefers to keep the procurement plan confined to the Special Forces only. The regular army will keep using the AK74 and the newer AK10Xs.

As for "nobody likes the M16", well, sorry to burst your bubble but there are plenty of conflicting reports about that. The US Forces routinely carry out satisfaction researches (not to mention reports from war correspondents embedded in small companies, tagging along for the fun) among the troops and most of them are satisfied with AR15-type weapons, though shortcomings have emerged in areas like Afghanistan (the 5.56mm not being powerful enough to punch through walls and cinderblock, insufficient range for M4s). The GIs and Marines out there know how to use their weapons - slapping EOTechs, SureFires, vertical grips on the rifle - like so many aficionados and self-appointed pundits who only show up at conventions like ShotShow - will certainly increase its efficiency but it means squat if you don't know to handle it in the first place. Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are trained to maintain the AR15s - they KNOW about the issues so please, let's stop acting like we are breaking this story to the world. Some GIs frequently use the M4s and M16A4s in Afghanistan, through many kinds of environment - dust, rock and even small farms coursing with irrigation ditches they sometimes have to dive into. Yet no "OMG it jams curse you quality control" outbreak has reached the media's attention the way it did during the VN war. That phase is practically over. Forever committed to memory for future reference, yes, but over already.

Some people advocate the switch to GP-type rifles (Gas Piston) and abandon DGI (Direct Gas Impingement) - for now most seem to agree that PG is cool but it also met its own stack of problems, like short-stroking (which can force the shooter to disassemble the upper receiver or handguard, depending on the model) and torque issues during recoil (which has forced engineers to thicken the barrels in order to preserve life expectancy all the while sacrificing lightness...and thus mobility). Colt has already studied (and is currently patenting) hybrid gas piston designs but has yet to completely make the transition, because the DGI block is actually lighter than the GP alternative and soldiers are now used to it. The prototype they used for the USMC's IAR competition - the 6940 / 6940H - still retained a DGI block instead of the new GP block/pusher rod duo. Colt has already fielded a monolithic upper receiver AR15 model featuring GP (CM-901 Advanced Piston Carbine) for both 7.62 and .223, but it's still in testing phase. It goes without saying that GP has a bright future in front of it but not everyone is ready to jump the ship, especially when it means re-training everyone and peeling one's wallet wi~de open (Colt is thinking about selling modular upper receivers for quick switches but it still means paying out big bucks).

The XM8 was cancelled for too many reasons. Budget cuts, suspicions of favoritism towards HK voiced by different arms manufacturers and the fact that, just like the ACR competition in the 1980s, the weapon didn't deliver anything truly groundbreaking (we're not talking about a very low amount of jams, but lethality-wise). Even the ACR, which fielded even more eyebrow-raising models (the flechette-launching Steyr ACR, the H&K recoilless, caseless rifle), couldn't replace the M16 because the candidates failed to truly impress the bigwigs (the Steyr had deadly ricochet issues when fired from the prone position, and the G11 caseless ammunition could catch fire and set its entire mag ablaze, if improperly or insufficiently cooled). Even the SCAR is starting to feel the US Army's growing second doubts - they're now wondering whether they should just produce the SCAR-H and just ditch the SCAR-L (quite a setback for FN Herstal because Colt recently managed to snatch the new M240B contract from under the noses, mirroring the episode where FN stole Colt's M16A2 contract; revenge is a dish best eaten cold, as they say).

Right now the focus is on several points such as finding an intermediate caliber (6.5mm Grendel / 6.8mm Remington SPC) between the 5.56 and the 7.62, ironing out the AR15 issues (they recently realized that the US Army was much better off using the HB barrel instead of the regular one so as to increase longevity and prevent heat dissipation problems when in full-auto; issuing better ammo mags) and weight reduction (PEO Soldier recently fielded out the M240L, a short-barreled, collapsible stock-equipped version of the M240 for paratroopers). That last part is even taken to a higher degree with the current R&D made on AAI's LSAT machine gun, which uses patented technology (caseless/telescopic rounds) from the H&K G11 to reduce ammo weight and volume by respectively 50% and 40%.

We're also witnessing a return to old guns - the M14 has been given a new life with the M14 EBR and Mk14 and now they revamped the old M40/M24 into the XM2010. Why? M16 not being powerful enough - though the Brits have introduced a new AR15-type, PSG1-equivalent for their troops in Afghanistan, BTW: the L129A1.

Last but not least, they recently sent several XM25 counter-defilade weapons to Afghanistan to see how well they perform onsite. It's supposed to be five times more effective than either the XM320 or the M203, so we will probably witness another tactics shift should the XM25 prove itself as a potential gamechanger.

BTW, this pic here is a classic. Not sure if anyone has more of those.

2010-12-12, 10:15	Link #37
Renegade334 Sleepy Lurker Graphic Designer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Nun'yabiznehz Age: 38	The M4/M16 vs. AK47 debate has been hashed, rehashed, killed and buried a long time ago. Aside from fanboys and hardliners spouting their usual "take this one it rules because I'm the one saying it", the general consensus is that both rifles have their advantages and flaws (M16 wins on range and accuracy, whereas AK47 wins on stopping power and resilience) and there's no real winner. It's actually all up to the shooter. M16s have come a long ways since Vietnam. Yes, the US know that because of the propellant ONCE used in the 5.56x45mm rounds, the gas impingement tube could get clogged up with soot. No longer. This is no news - in fact, partway through the VN war, the US forces started issuing new cleaning protocols to ensure that the rifles were properly maintained. Earlier advertisements claimed that the M16 was a "self-cleaning rifle" and that had disastrous consequences. Now everyone knows that if you're not careful and don't clean up every once in a while, the rifle will jam. Heck, recent studies even incriminated the 30-round ammo mags and compelled groups like PEO Soldier to fix the issues. All rifles are not immune against jamming - US and British forces realized in the Middle East when they realized that talcum-thin dust and sand penetrated pretty much everything and could do serious damage. Even an AK47 can fall victim to it and it never was a stranger to jamming, despite its reputation. Some models could easily encounter what we call "stovepipe jams" - though they're pretty much easy to clear and do not require disassembly. As for the AN-94 which was mentioned earlier, well, yes, it's powerful but its internal layout is complicated enough (since it has that two-round fast-tracking system) that the Russian Federation prefers to keep the procurement plan confined to the Special Forces only. The regular army will keep using the AK74 and the newer AK10Xs. As for "nobody likes the M16", well, sorry to burst your bubble but there are plenty of conflicting reports about that. The US Forces routinely carry out satisfaction researches (not to mention reports from war correspondents embedded in small companies, tagging along for the fun) among the troops and most of them are satisfied with AR15-type weapons, though shortcomings have emerged in areas like Afghanistan (the 5.56mm not being powerful enough to punch through walls and cinderblock, insufficient range for M4s). The GIs and Marines out there know how to use their weapons - slapping EOTechs, SureFires, vertical grips on the rifle - like so many aficionados and self-appointed pundits who only show up at conventions like ShotShow - will certainly increase its efficiency but it means squat if you don't know to handle it in the first place. Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are trained to maintain the AR15s - they KNOW about the issues so please, let's stop acting like we are breaking this story to the world. Some GIs frequently use the M4s and M16A4s in Afghanistan, through many kinds of environment - dust, rock and even small farms coursing with irrigation ditches they sometimes have to dive into. Yet no "OMG it jams curse you quality control" outbreak has reached the media's attention the way it did during the VN war. That phase is practically over. Forever committed to memory for future reference, yes, but over already. Some people advocate the switch to GP-type rifles (Gas Piston) and abandon DGI (Direct Gas Impingement) - for now most seem to agree that PG is cool but it also met its own stack of problems, like short-stroking (which can force the shooter to disassemble the upper receiver or handguard, depending on the model) and torque issues during recoil (which has forced engineers to thicken the barrels in order to preserve life expectancy all the while sacrificing lightness...and thus mobility). Colt has already studied (and is currently patenting) hybrid gas piston designs but has yet to completely make the transition, because the DGI block is actually lighter than the GP alternative and soldiers are now used to it. The prototype they used for the USMC's IAR competition - the 6940 / 6940H - still retained a DGI block instead of the new GP block/pusher rod duo. Colt has already fielded a monolithic upper receiver AR15 model featuring GP (CM-901 Advanced Piston Carbine) for both 7.62 and .223, but it's still in testing phase. It goes without saying that GP has a bright future in front of it but not everyone is ready to jump the ship, especially when it means re-training everyone and peeling one's wallet wi~de open (Colt is thinking about selling modular upper receivers for quick switches but it still means paying out big bucks). The XM8 was cancelled for too many reasons. Budget cuts, suspicions of favoritism towards HK voiced by different arms manufacturers and the fact that, just like the ACR competition in the 1980s, the weapon didn't deliver anything truly groundbreaking (we're not talking about a very low amount of jams, but lethality-wise). Even the ACR, which fielded even more eyebrow-raising models (the flechette-launching Steyr ACR, the H&K recoilless, caseless rifle), couldn't replace the M16 because the candidates failed to truly impress the bigwigs (the Steyr had deadly ricochet issues when fired from the prone position, and the G11 caseless ammunition could catch fire and set its entire mag ablaze, if improperly or insufficiently cooled). Even the SCAR is starting to feel the US Army's growing second doubts - they're now wondering whether they should just produce the SCAR-H and just ditch the SCAR-L (quite a setback for FN Herstal because Colt recently managed to snatch the new M240B contract from under the noses, mirroring the episode where FN stole Colt's M16A2 contract; revenge is a dish best eaten cold, as they say). Right now the focus is on several points such as finding an intermediate caliber (6.5mm Grendel / 6.8mm Remington SPC) between the 5.56 and the 7.62, ironing out the AR15 issues (they recently realized that the US Army was much better off using the HB barrel instead of the regular one so as to increase longevity and prevent heat dissipation problems when in full-auto; issuing better ammo mags) and weight reduction (PEO Soldier recently fielded out the M240L, a short-barreled, collapsible stock-equipped version of the M240 for paratroopers). That last part is even taken to a higher degree with the current R&D made on AAI's LSAT machine gun, which uses patented technology (caseless/telescopic rounds) from the H&K G11 to reduce ammo weight and volume by respectively 50% and 40%. We're also witnessing a return to old guns - the M14 has been given a new life with the M14 EBR and Mk14 and now they revamped the old M40/M24 into the XM2010. Why? M16 not being powerful enough - though the Brits have introduced a new AR15-type, PSG1-equivalent for their troops in Afghanistan, BTW: the L129A1. Last but not least, they recently sent several XM25 counter-defilade weapons to Afghanistan to see how well they perform onsite. It's supposed to be five times more effective than either the XM320 or the M203, so we will probably witness another tactics shift should the XM25 prove itself as a potential gamechanger. BTW, this pic here is a classic. Not sure if anyone has more of those. __________________ << -- Click to enter my (dead) GFX thread. Last edited by Renegade334; 2010-12-12 at 12:17.