[Wild Goose]

I hate to rain on your parade, guys, but generally Light Novels are termed that way because they use simplified characters in their printing, instead of the more complicated shit.

That said, the usual Light Novel demographic roughly corresponds to what in America would be the Young Adult market. When was the last time you saw something like SAO in the YA section? As far as I can recall, never.

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Don't feed the trolls?

Nah, I just find it always amusing that these types of people tend to always run away from point-by-point countering of their ideas, and will always fall back on the last defense of the ignorant: bluster and sweeping statements.

Oh wait, this wasn't even his idea to begin with - he's just regurgitating (i.e. eating his own vomit before vomiting out again) the ideas of someone else! So yeah, I think I win.

But then, it was an unfair debate to begin with - after all, I did study law, taking the hardest external degree programme in the Commonwealth.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu.

The problem, boyo, is that your examples generally agree on one point: Mary Sues tend to be perfect. The story follows them. Everyone loves them and throws themselves at the Sue's feet. There is no conflict. The appearance of the Sue is an automatic Win button for the heroes.

Frankly, I don't see this happening in Sword Art Online. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to be aware of this, given that you've chosen to launch your trolling based on the opinion of someone else, which you are just regurgitating*, and you have not even read the books in question.

Which I assume is frustrating you to no end, as I keep asking you to provide examples to argue your case, at which point you resort to sweeping statements. That's truly the mark of someone who didn't study his source material.

*Regurgitating: technical term for what cows do, which is eating grass, vomiting it up, and eating the said vomit. Process repeats three times for another three stomachs, until the 4x regurgitated grass vomit hits the intestines.

The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception.
Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

At the same time, you haven't actually given anything to prove your point. You've just said, "Kirito is a Sue, because another poster said so!" and you haven't managed to argue your points successfully. Hell, you haven't even read the light novels!

You have zero credibility in this case. Go and read. Then redo your points with your examples. And then, maybe then, will you be taken seriously.

Wait, you can't. You've shown zero ability to think and debate point by point. All you can do is make sweeping, generalized statements, because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree.

Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.answers.com/topic/mary-sue-1
http://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Stu
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

You're missing the whole point. And since we're linking, I'm going to counter with a blog post from Larry Correia, who is a published author on the New York Times bestseller list, AND Jim Butcher, author of the excellent Codex Alera and Dresden Files series is a big fan of his: The Evils of Mary Sue

I'll sum up his main point, which is something you keep willfully ignoring: Kirito, nor other characters in Sword Art Online, can NOT correctly be termed as Mary Sues, because they are organic to that verse. They are the main characters of that verse. Therefore, the term Mary Sue cannot apply, as it is used to refer to fanfiction author created characters with undesirable traits.

And Kirito's mistakes being due to other people? Really. Well then, where's your evidence? Show your examples to back up your arguments. Where is the cancerous grip on the story? He's telling his own story. Of course it will follow him!

And again, you're not giving your examples, but just making sweeping, broad statements. Contrast the following analogies:

Scenario: Plaintiff ship owner suing defendant dock owner as dock is too shallow to moor ship, and ship is damaged.

Randomzx: "Docks should be deep enough!" (Sweeping statement)

Wild Goose: "Based on the Officious Bystander Rule, as laid down in the case of The Moorcock, it is submitted that there was an implied term in the contract that the defendants' dock would be deep enough to allow the plaintiff's vessel to be moored without damage." (Point and quoted example to support.)

But at the end of the day, what this really serves to accomplish is nothing of import. Without a strong argument, you cannot convince us, yet you cannot argue that which you do not know. You who know not what you speak of, but in your conceit attempt to lord your ignorance over others, brushing aside debate and reasoned arguments for childish bluster.

You are as a storm in a teacup, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.

I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy.

Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether.

I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear.

This brings a few phrases to mind, such as Victory Goes To The Brave, Dividing Driver, Final Fusion... GaoGaiGar.

That said, often times the Braves did have to work hard for their wins. But when they pulled it off, awesomeness ensued.

In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time.

That's quite true. Sephiroth, for instance, is a massive sue, and yet gets a pass due to how entertaining he is. One could argue Nineball Seraph is this as well, or the Dovahkiin...

Bottomline: If you're entertained and having fun, then it's forgivable. That said, IMO Kirito isn't a Sue, based on above posts.