[Haak]

Spoiler for monster:

Originally Posted by monster

Except she did know beforehand. The treaty couldn't be made without her knowing.Orb joined the EA only after Cagalli had returned and failed to stop the treaty from being made. And that's when they suddenly turned hostile against the Minerva.

She didn't know it was already a done deal. She didn't know the rest of politicians were conspiring against her and behind her back. Notice when Yuna welcomes Cagalli to Orb again and hints to his father how they've already planned to turn hostile to Minerva.

Building mobile suits for defensive purpose is not the same thing as building nuclear weapons.

No it isn't, but my point still stands.

Exactly, thus MAD is not a factor.

Because EA didn't believe there would be any consequences, not because he didn't care about the consequences.

If they could do that to the PLANTs, they could do that to anyone, including Orb.

The only reason they could do it to the PLANT was because of a plot hole and the fact that they acted quickly, within the same say. However several days had passed whilst Orb were debating whether to from a treaty with the EA. At that point it's clearly too different situations.

Uh, it effectively destroyed all their nuclear weapons. I don't think they needed further testing.

Just because it managed to stop an attack once, doesn't mean it's invincible.

But no, let's jump straight ahead to a completely new gigantic and untested weapon that's going to spend loads of time to build. Makes perfect sense.

By definition, a deterrence is something that would prevent an attack. Since Orb has already been attacked by the EA, Orb doesn't have any reason to believe that they could deter the EA.

I think we just went over this and you didn't have anything else left to add other than a cicular logic.

And I already made a very clear point that just because Orb couldn't deter EA once does not automatically mean Orb can never deter the EA thereafter. It does not logically follow. There are other factors, and you yourself agreed that other factors change things..

The Berlin example is further showing to the audience what Orb already knew about the EA from SEED. In other words, it gives credence for Orb's decision to join the EA.

And how is that relevant to whether or not Orb was acting out of character or not, when Orb isn't going to know about that credence until later?

Athrun's words in the episode Land of Peace:

"We cannot take unprepared actions alone without conclusive evidence."

So while they're not in doubt that the Archangel is in Orb, they still wanted evidence.

Conclusive evidence, but not for them. It's pretty obvious from their conversation they don't need it.

It's for the masses. For everyone else.

Spoiler for Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

I know they didn't, i mentioned that in a earlier post. I said that it was their reason for invading Orb in SEED along with Azrael wanting to test out the 3 druggies.

Well I don't recall that ever being said but I can accept that as a possible Pro. But still a bit of battle experience for his druggies shouldn't have made the whole thing worth it.

swallowing a lot of BS?
no, i simply accept the fact that the show took that route, even how retarded it may seem, arguing over the fact that it was a stupid choice. Which i've never denied that it was, i've only said that due to the Seirans being in charge, it makes more sense seeing how they are pretty much polar opposites to Uzumi (Instead of letting Orb burn to the ground to keep their ideals intact, they simply give up to the EA by abandoning Orb/Attha's Ideals)

Then what exactly is your problem with me saying that it was out of character and bad writing?

Destiny itself is BS, complaining that dogpoop smells like shit when you sit near it by choice is a pretty dull statement, you know

Destiny had plenty of flaws but ultimately i didn't think it was any more BS than SEED. So sorry, but I think you've completely misunderstood where I was coming from the entire time.

Let me rephrase then, he regretted the outcome of the battle(Heliopolis being destroyed) but not the battle itself, does that make it more clear?

That's fair enough. But the fact that he'd do it again except with trying to limit the causalities also means that he'd be willing to invade Orb under the same reasoning.

Honestly, i'm not quite sure what point you are trying to get across here, you stated Athrun was high in the chain of command, i simply stated he was a regular red-coat with more knowledge than the average grunt seeing how his father was on the council. Athrun himself holds no more political power than say, Yzak does.

I wasn't talking about Athrun here. I was pointing out that your point about how ZAFT wouldn't invade Orb rests on the exact same reasoning I made to monster.

Episode 25:
Athrun:But as long as tha t's Orb's official response to the situation, sitting here and screaming our heads off saying its fale won't do us any good, will it?
Yzak:What?
Athrun:If we forced our way there, it would end up becoming a diplomatic matter involving our nation.
Yzak: I'd say thats a pretty coolheaded decision, Athrun.
Yzak: Oh, excuse me, Commander Zala *correcting himself
Dearka:So, arte you saying we should just accept what they say and leave?
Athrun: We'll have carpentaria apply some pressure, but if things aren't resolved quickly, we'll sneak in.

So, from that conversation, where do they debate a full-scale conquest?

And what do you think the diplomatic matter could lead to? If Athrun and his team fight Orb then the rest of ZAFT will be forced into attacking Orb as well. And if Orb is a nation that ZAFT could actually crush so easily, why should it be a problem?

*Dearka is the one who wants them to " brute force " their way in, not Yzak, and he is quickly shot down by Athrun who reminds him that it wouldnt be like Heliopolis.

Both of them wanted to.

its shitty writing, but atleast it made up a reason for Orb to act the way it did, The Seirans. If they didn't exist, i'd say it was out of characters, but since they do and they are actually given a small amount of developing (Power hungry, thinking alot about their own survival) it does make sense to see Orb act the way it does when they are in power.

Except ultimately it doesn't and I've already made my point very clear on this. The Seirans simply do not have as much legal and cultural influence over Orb as you implied they had to in order for it to make sense.

Exactly, they do, and that's all we have to go on. Somehow, they got a hand over Cagalli with the wedding, And with Cagalli gone Orb had noone to uphold their old ideals, except her Nana maybe?

So you still admit it's out of character?

Having knowledge doesnt make you higher in command, Athrun was put in charge of the Zala squad because he was the one with the best leadership qualities amongst Rau's squad, Yzak even said it himself, " That's a cool headed approach " Athrun doesnt make rash decisions, Yzak does.

Yzak specifically stated he was higher in Command...

I honestly don't care Raak, you are a sensible person, but you have forgotten/ignored some things about the show. like Athrun and Yzak arguing about invading orb when they clearly arent.

Again, I can make the exact same points myself. Do you want me to be an arsehole about it or do you want me to respond to you like an adult? If it's the latter you're going to have to start caring whether you like it or not.

Honestly, i couldn't care less if you have a positive or negative opinion about me, this is a internet forum, we're discussion a show. If you feel like i've personally insulted you by telling you to stop being a sore loser because you've forgotten certain aspects of a show, then it's up to you to take offense or not.

Actually, the responsibility lies with you to stop trying to offend me...