[jjblue1]

So many messages to reply...

Originally Posted by Renall

-stuffs

Spoiler for Lenght:

I think I prefer to divide everything in different options:

• piece!Erika is aware of the meta. This imply piece!Erika already knows the cast and that there can't be extra characters. She knows that the basic structure of the game will cause the game to be cut in two parts, one in which all she can do is to solve the epitaph and one in which the murders will start.
  She already has a goal, which is to frama a culprit that will please her master.
  
  Due to this: she doesn't need to check the characters, as she knows who they are already and that at the moment they aren't going to play any serious murder trick.
  
• piece!Erika isn't aware of the meta. In this case she can't even know she's supposed to see everyone in the room or that a crime is going to happen. Due to this: although it would be better for her to check, she might decide to not to because she's busy behaving like a good guest and talking to her hosts so she can't keep on turning around and check what the ones that are moving behind her are doing.

Now, if you want to say that she should have continued checking what people were doing regardless, Erika showed more than once that she don't always check things and nothing in the parlour hint this time she was checking what the people were doing, on the contrary we're told how proper she was behaving. Not checking things is a character fault of her.

If you want insist this time she had have checked things because that's the smart thing to do be my guest, however I guess all we can do is agree to disagree because there's no hint she's doing it.

This translated it: even if meta!Erika was directly connected to her piece's vision as long as piece!Erika doesn't keep on scanning the room meta!Erika can't know if Shannon and Kanon can be seen at the same time.

It's also worth to note that Erika was introduced to Shannon (as well as Kumasawa and Nanjo and possibly even to other people) prior to reach the parlour so she had no need to be introduced to everyone in the parlour.

Originally Posted by Renall

"Kanon and Shannon were switching off and Erika saw both" means the scene was a lie but it was a semi-plausible lie to the memory of Piece-Erika, who observed at different times Shannon and Kanon being present and thus sees no issues with the scene as presented since her own memory didn't let her see what Battler would have seen from his perspective, but it "sounds right." The red is not a lie, because all human persons were present in the room when Lambda proclaimed it, even though Kanon (or Shannon) actually wasn't visibly present. The problem with this is it's really just "Kanon was standing behind Gohda" evolved. It's not really any more satisfactory an explanation, just one that can be explained without suggesting Erika's piece was deceived.

Well, we know, regardless of which trick it was used, that Erika couldn't see Shannon and Kanon at the same time. So a trick was used in that scene to make possible that Shannon and Kanon were there at the same time.

I like to think at a certain point they switched because it would make logically easier to fool Erika if she had seen them both in the parlour at different times also in regard to a possible red and blue battle over the existence of Kanon than to believe Erika never saw Kanon to begin with.

However Battler in EP 5 was concerned he might be the culprit in Ep 1-4. This means although he was the detective and using his own piece and sometimes was so close connected to it that the piece said what he was saying to Beato, there were times in which he had no idea what his piece was doing.

Plus, although we try to deal with the mysteries as if they were realitic mysteries Umineko is a logic game.

Keriaku also pointed out how in EP 6 it was possible to accept an explanation that in real life would be pratically impossible.
We also have the 'people who don't get wet despite the rain' but also 'Kinzo's body hidden somewhere in the main house for more than a year', 'nobody noticing Shannon and Kanon have the same face, not even Erika', and so on.

Also, in the parlour scene is a lot easier to trick Erika about Shannon and Kanon's presence in a way that might look logical than in the scene placed in front and inside Kinzo's room. There they definitively had no time to switch, they both talked, Erika must have heard them with her amazing hearing abilities and the only way thanks to which she might not have noticed actually one of them was missing and the other was sometimes talking pretending to be the missing one was that 'they' were hiding behind the adults.

I can buy more easily the explanation 'in the parlour Kanon hid behind Gohda' than 'out and in of Kinzo's room Shannon and Kanon were always kept hidden from Erika's view by the adults, who although were divided in two different groups (Natsuhi's and the siblings') who were currently sort of fighting each other, cooperated to keep Shannon and Kanon hidden and didn't find it odd in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Renall

If Erika can't remember seeing Kanon, but "buys it" because the scene put him there, that's an indicator that she's basically stupid and lazy.

Not everything the unreliable narration told us was a lie. Kumasawa is described as standing with Shannon behind Erika so out of her field of vision. Erika couldn't check if she was there, but the narration didn't lie about her. It's possible other people were out of Erika's field of vision but the narration didn't lie about them being there.

If Erika had figured out this could be important she probably would have checked it... but because Erika checks only what she thought is important and never suspected Kanon might not exist she never bothered to check Kanon's existence.

Originally Posted by Renall

And if Battler's narration is lying, he's doing so for absolutely no reason. Stupid, lazy detectives and narrators telling lies for no reason are hallmarks of incredibly poor writing, and it's going to trip up the reader quite badly.

Well, Battler lies also when he says he saw Kinzo.

"............ah."
At that time, .........I looked at a dimly lit outdoor light......and saw the silhouette of a person in front of it.
I thought I must be seeing things.
After all, it was unthinkable that someone would have been standing there the whole time, pounded upon by the rain without even an umbrella.
However, ......the silhouette didn't move an inch, .........and maybe.........no, it couldn't be......
.........It was...looking at me.
And......it was.........
".................."
".....................G-"
......Grandfather...............
At that time, ......I understood.
Grandfather had probably.........been watching us solve the riddle the whole time.
......And, ......he had seen us......as we had spectacularly solved the entire riddle of the epitaph......
".................................Hmph......"
Without a doubt, .........Grandfather smiled faintly.
Grandfather, who had never worn anything except moody and frightening expressions, ......looked me in the face......and smiled at me for the first time.
......Almost as though he was saying 'How impudent'.
Or else, 'I never thought it would be you'...
However, ......this is the result...chosen by Grandfather's epitaph.
So I'm sure......that Grandfather accepted that result.
In the end......he grinned one more time.
Of course, he didn't use words.
His smile seemed to be wordlessly saying......well done......
......I didn't know how I should respond.
I couldn't do anything but stand there in shock, ignoring Erika as she crouched down, mumbling with her back towards me.
......Then, Grandfather stretched a hand out from the folds of his cloak and pointed at something.
When I looked in that direction.........there was.........
The thing he was pointing at......was probably...
......The signpost to the Golden Land.
......Go.
I'm sure Grandfather said that one word.
I......nodded to show that I understood.
After watching that, Grandfather nodded back, satisfied.
Then, with a spin of his cloak.........he disappeared, seeming to melt into the darkness......
The expression on his face at the end......was a truly and finally satisfied......smile.
"Are you listening? Battler-san? Did you hear my reasoning?"
"............I've found it. That's the signpost to the Golden Land."
"......Huh? Ah, ......it's facing a different direction than it used to. ......I see. So it means 'go that way'. ......You've got some pretty good powers of observation."
"Grandfather told me about it."
"Huh? Kinzo-san...? Where?"

Note that since Battler was so bright in EP 5 he solved the epitaph he didn't need to say he saw Kinzo, merely that he noticed something. This is added in as an extra clue for us that Battler, not being the detective, has lost his privilege to a reliable viewpoint. The previous istance in which Battler lied about the parlour scene is merely a trick to fool us into believing Shannon and Kanon had been observed together by a reliable narrator. That's likely why Lambda had piece!Battler lie.

Originally Posted by Renall

Neither of these really satisfies me, but neither do any of the other permutations I addressed. But the point is, looking at the scene, the following things must be answered:

• Who was actually present, and when?
• Who did Erika see, and did she see them at the same time?
• How much of what Erika saw is accessible to Bernkastel and Meta-Erika, if anything?
• Is Lambda allowed, as a GM, to advance this falsehood right in front of Erika's face? Was Beatrice allowed to do the same to Battler? What happens if they catch on?
• Why did Lambda bother with this in the first place?
• Did Battler have any reason to lie about what he saw, or was Lambda just making him lie?

Hm... many of your questions are left without answer by the game.
We can toss in a theory but we can prove it.

As the red states that while Erika was talking with the cousins everyone was in the parlour, at that moment everyone must have been in the parlour. However as for who Erika saw, this becomes impossible to say.
Erika interacts with many people but in separate times. It's possible in different times she saw everyone in the parlour... but to say who she was seeing while talking with Battler is impossible. The only secure thing is she wasn't seeing Kumasawa and Shannon because Battler describes them as behind Erika.

Also we are never told how much of what piece!Erika can be accessible to meta!Erika and Bern. Battler didn't have full access to his piece's actions in the previous games so I generally think the same apply for Erika.
I know there's people that think that for Erika things can work differently.
The game doesn't bother to state which one of the two theories is right.
As I've already said I don't like the idea the detective can see falsehood... but I've nothing against the detective being tricked into thinking he saw something when that something actually isn't there.

Battler didn't check if Shannon's corpse was there in EP 1 so he believed he was.
Erika didn't check if everyone was in the parlour so she believed they were.
I'm fine with this.
What I wouldn't be fine would be Erika checked and saw that everyone was there.

This however is personal preference. For me it's more logical this way.

As for why Lambda bothered in the first place maybe it was a hint for Battler. The only time his piece had seen both Shannon and Kanon was when his viewpoint wasn't reliable. And in this episode he saw them together a lot.

Though it can also be a trick just in case someone where suspecting Shannon and Kanon to be the same person.

Again, no explanation is given about Lambda's motive.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That game begins with Battler calling Jessica on the phone some time before the conference, for no apparent reason, and we don't get to see what they talk about. Frankly, he probably was compromised from the outset.

Oh, that phonecall! I've always wondered what it was for!
This could be a good explanation!

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I think that of the murder mystery part of the episodes, the solution wasn't always Shkannon, until the end of EP6, where even Meta-Battler goes, "Are you sure? The human side would be screaming at that being so unfair." Which it was, but if you go back through EP1-4, was Shkannon ever necessary for all the particulars of the murder mysteries? I can only think of the EP3 chained locked room where it was because Shkannon had two master keys... Hm...

In general though, Shkannon seems to form the answer only for the Greater Mystery, which is non-detective in nature, I think. It's that other 'Mystery' genre I was talking about, although this one doesn't seem supernatural in flavour.

I'm not 100% sure but in this interview it was said:

Spoiler for Part of an interview to Ryukishi:

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

My guess is that said content is the ShKannon part, that it was removed from EP 3, that happens in EP 5 but Battler and Erika ignore it in Ep 5 (where Erika or meta!Battler never noticed Shannon and Kanon are the same person) and that's the 'unfair trick' used in EP 6.

Now, it can be that Land would have played it better and would have anticipated the problem, however, the fact Ryukishi postponed the problem caused it to lose impact.

Spoiler for Replies to Toku cuts due to lenght:

Originally Posted by Toku

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Ikuko is Yasuda and she wrote all eight episodes, with Tohya's help in later cases. It just ties everything up pretty nicely... In my opinion.

I also thinks that Ikuko is Yasuda... but I think the tales she writes with Toya don't include the meta part (while they could include parts we didn't read in the episodes, for example in Banquet the Hachijo's tale likely mentioned Eva reaching Kuwadorian, while we learnt this happened from Alliance)

Originally Posted by Toku

You are correct. But while Mystery has more weight, it is not the single element. There is also a Fantasy side. In other words, there are 2 overlapping stories. In the Mystery story, what you're saying could be what's happening. However, in the Fantasy story, Goats and Stakes and Demons can exist.

Think about it this way.

Natsuhi is sitting on a bench. She is talking to her friend Beatrice. However, from the Mystery side of things, Witches do not exist. Therefore, we reason that either:
1. She is insane and consequently believes she is talking to a Witch.
2. She is just pretending, in order to cope with the trauma of Kinzo's death and the subsequent near loss of all of the family's honor.

I believe that neither of these is true.

On the Mystery side, what we have is just Natsuhi, sitting alone on a bench. She is not pretending to have a conversation with anyone.

But on the Fantasy side, she is chatting with the Witch.

On both sides of the story, she is certainly trying to cope with the trauma of recent family troubles. This is the important thing. Even if you are shown a blatant falsehood, it is not inherently a waste of time.

Even so, if you figure out what is happening on the Mystery side, the Fantasy will disappear.

This sounds like a good theory.

Spoiler for Replies to Wanderer cuts due to lenght:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

You know, it's interesting because Bern supplied an unearned Red to Erika during the trial: at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive. Lambdadelta said it was something that Erika did not observe but then she acknowledged it anyway because otherwise the game couldn't move forward.

Again Bern said later... Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...! Beatrice complained that Erika did not observe it (which she didn't; she was in the guest house), but Bern responded: The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!

And it happened yet again: When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room. Erika did not observe this either.

So, hmm? Did Bern just assume right? Or did she know these things without Erika observing them? Or is she just making shit up and Lambda is letting her do it?

I don't like the idea Bern could 'have access to extra tips about the game', not without Lambda's permission.
It's possible thought this red was given by Lambda the first time the game was played and Bern is merely reporting it.
It's unfair for Erika to use it but... as long as Lambda doesn't complain I guess Erika can do as she please.
After all she's allowed to go on with her theory about Kinzo being alive...

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Actually, I checked the scene again. It's kind of obvious that it wasn't Kinzo who showed Battler the way; he already knew it. Battler didn't solve the epitaph; he already knew all about it and just pretended to solve it. 8)

So anyway the question is not if Battler narrates lies in EP5, but how and why. And obviously the how and why have to be explained in meta terms since, as you say, people don't lie to themselves in their minds. The "how" I think has to do with the concept of the "Reader", the "why" I think has to do with fooling Erika and putting Battler on the right track. Lambda, and even Bern, might not actually be on Erika's side or be Battler's enemy, at least in EP5.

You know, the idea that Battler was told the solution of the epitaph beforehand is rather interesting. It would explain why Battler couldn't solve it in the previous games while he could now (though is also possible he didn't want to think too deeply at it in front of his cousins while, now that Erika was around, he was merely enjoying the challenge... and also getting tips from the adults).

Originally Posted by Wanderer

That scene bothered me for a similar reason when I read it the first time. When I read it the next time I was seeing Lambda and Bern as metaphors for metaphysical forces, gods, if you will. "Praying" to Bern is hoping things outside your control will go your way, while "praying" to Lambda is believing your efforts will be rewarded.

Meanwhile, the conflicts and alliances seen in the Meta-World are metaphors for things happening in the real world. Lambda and Bern, doing what they do, mean different things to different people in different situations. In this way they can play various roles (ally, villain etc.) in various circumstances. Neither Lambda or Bern are inherently good or evil; after all, they are just metaphors of (meta)physical forces.

Now, gods like Lambda and Bern are only influential in so far as they and their power is believed in. Lambda's death symbolized a destruction of the belief that persistent effort would certainly yield success, and Battler beating Bern represented a rejection of her power to control his fate. It's basically a matter of willpower; Bern tried to make everything go wrong for Battler's real world goals, but he just refused to let that discourage him.

Of course these ideas are highly abstract. I probably didn't explain my thoughts in a way that's very easy to understand....

Personally I rather like this interpretation.