[Keroko]

Pardon the double post, but once again a conversation popped up in the OC thread.

I really should stop doing this.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It doesn't change the fact that it is a far cry from "never lose", which was Tk's point from the manga.

Granted, never lose was symbolic, but that does not change 'best choice'

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Probably a matter of it being a nice even pressure versus a differential pressure? Anyway, if things that don't "make sense" to you get deleted, can I delete such scenes as the slamming scenes on the grounds that it makes no sense at all from a realistic point of view? Or the high speed scenes?

Movement is even pressure now?

All right, so I grant you that scene. Where does that bring us? At a controdictionairy point. Barrier Jackets are worn for defence, but apparently they are useless defending against puffs of wind from flying bugs. Whgich brings us where?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Granting this is true, remember A = F / M. If M increases, A decreases while F stays the same.

.... blank line.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Given an adequately thin and brittle piece of metal, even a low velocity ball can do the job. It is obvious that this is a sign of the Gadget Drone's cheap construction - don't laugh; look at Rein for a sense of perspective.

Hmm, that is true.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Two SoD-compatible alternatives:
1) Flash Move can just last a little longer than we think it can.
2) There was indeed Time Manipulation. I don't have to remind you which one gets kept and which one gets shifted.

Following your logic, the fast movement scenes are locked by sound though. Heck, the scene in 16:51 even has nice sparkling sounds that don't change as soon as Nanoha starts talking.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I don't know about Tk, but I accept Bullet Time. I don't accept Bullet Time with voices.

Happens all the time in anime though.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It did. They were very careful to shut the characters up for it (in fact, it was just about silent, thus freeing the arc for very high time manipulation ratios), too. (Similarly, in the scenes I suspect are sped up, they don't talk too).

And the rest of the sounds don't matter anymore?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

As the JS dive bombed? Same here. As Nanoha eeped, she covered herself at a speed which is within arc of normal human motion, thus showing that the voice-timelock is active and we've snapped to normal speed. It also shows that 7Arcs doesn't think you need a scene transition before you change speeds.

Hmm, good point.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Where the kid caught the ball? Looks like normal time to me.

If people falling to the ground slowly is normal.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That wasn't even an action scene. Fate is muttering all over the place. It is clearly normal time. Do you mean 17:05? Still in human range...

Bleh, my bad. I meant 16:05 in episode 03. Granted its a flashbacks, and there are no voices, but its still slow motion.

Anyway, my point of these scenes was to show the existence of bullet time in Nanoha, not break your voice-lock. I'll start looking for scenes that do that in a minute.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, now tell me. In how many of them were they stupid enough to mix time manipulation with voices.

Scene 4:57 in episode 8 comes to mind. Not only is Fate moving in slow-motion, but we have faster then normal moving magic rounds too.

18:20 in episode 9 shows Nanoha dodging lightning bolts, which are obviously slowed (heck, in later scenes they apear and disapear instantly) and this scene was also voiced.

6:18 in episode 11 is another, in the middle of a Flash Move -which we know goes fast- Nanoha is yelling, again showing the inexistence of Voice-Lock.

6:45 in the same episode shows faster then normal magic rounds (as well as instantly raised shields. Interesting notion, very usefull.)

15:46 in 11 has a nice slow motion scene of a grunt being knocked back by Precia. Voiced.

Episode 12 also has a scene that shows why Voice-lock is useless. At 11:55 a sword is headed for Nanoha, after which we cut to a shot of Bardiche. If we count that scene as chronoligically accurate, then Nanoha should have been cut in half by that time. Obviously she wasn't, so despite the scene being voiced, it was still faster then it should have been.

Whew, well that's all I could pick out when speed-watching S1. Haven't started A's yet, much less StrikerS, but with so many examples lining up in the first season alone, I'd say its safe to say Voice-Lock is busted.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

2) Using confrontational methods, the dictionary, by its admitted imperfect and "dialogue" nature, almost automatically loses.

Admitted imperfect nature? Since when?

That aside, during the novel debate you were so insistent that he most recent source of canon is the one we should believe. With the booklets being the most recent source of canon, and the scenes explainable instead of outright changing, doesn't that sort of counter your earlier statements?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, and here we see the power of rifle scopes and long barrels

<--- fails to see why long barrels should matter when the shots are formed outside the barrels.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

See above. Consider mass. Consider fragility. Also consider that when they want 200m/s speeds, they show it. The one supersonic weapon they showed was justifiably supersonic onscreen. They know how to show fast and aren't afraid to show it (which is as it should be).

The problem is that from a analysis point of view, the time dimension of the slow scenes is much more fixed than those of the fast scenes (because Nanoverse characters jabber to each other so much). There will also be little point in having the devices talk if they really spend most of their time at the high speed - the time allowed to cast spells becomes so small.

Just try this on for plausibility.

Pho -- BAM -- ton -- BAM BAM BAM! Lan -- BAM -- BOOM KABOOM -- cer.

... You know, with all that I don't see why you're disagreeing with me? This shows exactly my point. There is no point in constantly showing the high-speed battles since it would take away all the character and storyline development, hence they slow down the action on-screen, but leave the far-off shots to prove that it is actually supposed to go a lot faster.

It's like how in many shounen anime, the characters are supposed to move 'faster then the eye can see' and yet we can still see them. Heck, they're even talking to eachother while moving at those speeds. Why? Because it'd make for a boring watch if we weren't able to see them fight.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In other words, they do it.

Ahh, I finally see. You are arguing from a legalistic precedence point of view. And there I'll agree. There are definitely more slowdowns than speedups.

More like 'taught and self gained experience' roughly 30% of my grades are in animation. Scenes where speeds are attained that are not supposed to be the speeds that are atainable are comedic scenes, like characters dashing away from angry girls or the 'trail of dust' scenes and the like. Beyond comedic exceptions the general acceptance is 'the fastest speed we see on screen is the speed its supposed to be'

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

There are two problems with this.

1) There are far more slow scenes than high speed scenes, and the slow scenes are far more detailed. Thus, favoring the speedy scenes will be to favor the minority of evidence.

Although true (I can hardly deny this), I can see a high level of self-contradiction in this. After all, you use one scene of weakness in the Barrier Jackets to justify the 'Barrier Jackets are weak' argument yourself.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

2) VTL. As long as a scene is NOT timelocked with detailed sounds (read: voices), it may be freely time compressed or dilated without affecting its canonicity. After all, scenes do not lose their canonicity when the zoom (magnification) changes, and what is "Bullet Time" but a magnification for easier viewing in the time dimension? It does affect our ability to extract data, but a scene does not become non-canon just because it cannot be satisfactorily ranged (say b/c of an unknown zoom factor), so the same applies in the time dimension.

Detailed sounds also include clashes, blasts, breaking surroundings and so forth and so forth, and yet you choose to ignore those. Besides, I think I already showed that applying Voice-Lock to animation is far from acurate.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

3) A scene that overtly breaks VTL, on the other hand, cannot be a representation (even a Increased Speed one) of reality. It is, by logical definition, a fake. It might be more fun to watch (fantasy is often more interesting than reality), but it is still a fake. Take the Clannad scene. The audience view is amusing, but ultimately, it is but a fake (as further proven by the fact that under close observation, the audience view is actually different, not just a slowed down version even if you ignore the audio). The spectator view is canon. As you can see, from an analytical point of view, the scene with voices always wins due to this basic principle of plausibility.

So as long as Voice-Lock does not apply, the scene is discardable? Nice way to rule out my claims of Voice-Lock not applying, but I'm not buying it. That's the pot calling the kettle black there.

You know, the most biggest difference between your logic and mine is that I don't discard scenes. I explain them. You, however, just blatantly said 'this scene is useless, it never happened'

And the part of it not being a representation of reallity is cute. Especially since I've been saying that all along. This is anime, animation, something created to entertain, to look cool, to look cute. It is not created with 'reallity' foremost in mind, ergo, comparing it with reallity is inherently flawed.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It is definitely homing though, Vita's ability to supplement it with her own guidance notwithstanding. At least RH thinks so (Ep 1, unless homing suddenly changed meaning in Mid), and it'll explain the clearly tailchase trajectory employed against Fate (Ep2), characteristic of primitive homing weapons that have not learnt the advantages of Proportional Navigation. The alternative is that the Vita-Graf Eisen Combat Complex put together don't have a clue about efficient trajectories.

Blah, thats true. I gotta stop making posts without propperly checking my sources. >_<

... Actually, I should stop doing this at all. How many times have we had this discussion now? Every time I plan to stop, something comes up and I start all over again.