[Forsaken_Infinity]

BINGO! This is going to be long. So please bear with me and read it through - especially if you commented on the last post of mine. I am gonna go backwards and pick up the most interesting posts to reply to.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I really hate to say this but don't take this personally, because this appears to be a general trend everywhere...

Agreed that this is the general trend, but that doesn't take away from it's value. That something is general doesn't mean it's worthless.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But he and others are calling it as it is. Whether you disagree or not, people have thoughts and those can be changed eventually. You can't fault people not being satisfied.

You can fault people making very specific remarks about a product before it's even done. Massive amount of crying over pre-alpha screenshots of an as of yet unreleased game, or remarking that an anime should be shorter before it's even halfway through, for instance.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

See, some of us would rather not fanboy over certain directors and concentrate on the show itself. I'm really sorry that some of us can't comprehend the genius and are slower, but if the show is really that great, then it'll prove itself and their minds are changed.

May sound surprising, but I don't care about Ikuhara at all. I wrote in my post that I am more or less with Guardian_Enzo when he called RGU a show with many faults and some surreal elements/moments that make it a worthy watch.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

If it doesn't... what can it do? The first use of an anime is to entertain, and you're basically saying "Stop complaining about not having fun!"

I don't see how I could have not come across any less condescending other than not making that post at all and I had not a good enough reason not to make it. I had enough of a reason to make it, on the other hand, for I like activity and it sure generated it. Too bad I wasn't able to participate at all though.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It's nice that you and others are able to appreciate this. But please realize that not others feel the same way; the way you're posting makes it feel like you're worrying about his lack of enjoyment is somehow corroding your enjoyment.

I doubt I appreciate it any more than Guardian_Enzo does tbh. It's just that he posted a critical approach and I posted a counter approach to that. I am very positive that our level of enjoyment from the show is very similar otherwise.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Assuming it's all part of the plan and everything will unfold perfectly is also making too many assumptions. For some of us, the show must prove its value before we can give it that kind of credit, and thus people are calling it out on what they've seen too far.

It's always a question of balance. Calling out on something before it has even started taking it's intended motion isn't entirely right either - and that's all I wanted to highlight with my post. I don't disagree with anything Guardian_Enzo said or anything you are saying here.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Personally, I like the show. But when addressing people who aren't impressed, you're using a worthless argument. You can't give credit to stuff people haven't done yet (future episodes).

TL;DR It's up to the anime to prove itself to the viewers

Agreed, but it also requires the viewer to withhold judgment until they see enough of it. Not liking something personally vs criticizing something is different. I think I wrote something like "like it or not, up to you" and it entirely is but if someone wishes to make valid and more importantly, specific, criticisms of the show then they should wait until they have seen enough of it to point out the details pertaining to the specifics. The specifics in this case was the length of the show and if I had not much respect for Guardian_Enzo, I wouldn't bother saying anything at all. It's precisely because I like his "criticisms" usually that I said what I did.


Kay - that was one type of comments - you shouldn't say such things - that I got. And the tl;dr version of my reply is that everything that can be said is a valid enough thing to say. To wuss out and not say it is the wrong thing - not otherwise. Guardian_Enzo received many /bows from me for saying the stuff he said out loud before I proceeded to make that post against his line of thought.

Next is the most general type of comments - not necessarily much different from the previous one but slightly more involved with the show itself than the moral issues of posting an opinion yada yada.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

One man's trash, you know? What you're effectively saying is, "Take the show as the director intends it and shut up." That doesn't inspire much of a discussion, does it? Offering critical commentary isn't "playing the critic" as you so condescendingly put it - it's participating in a discussion. If you're not comfortable with anything but positive commentary, you're the one with the problem.

I didn't mean for it to sound condescending but there was no way I could make it any less condescending than not saying it at all so I just wrote something that I was 100% sure would spark some discussion, and so it did. That post did inspire discussion, and thus it achieved its goal, in so far as I am concerned.

I quite enjoy your posts and I never meant to imply you had a problem but that you should leave very specific remarks such as the proper length of the show until after the show is done and not before. I have many problems, but not being comfortable with positive commentary isn't one. My problem there - and anywhere else - is playing the devil's advocate to a flaw.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's certainly valid to love Ringo as a character - different viewers are going to react differently to a character as a matter of course. I'd certainly take issue with the statement that we've never seen anything like her - we've seen lots of characters like her. In fact, she's practically a trope. It's just that - in my view - many of those characters were executed much more effectively. I'll certainly agree she's much different from Utena as a character - they fill a different role and represent a different perspective.

I don't think you can find a character who does all that Ringo does with such a weak justification. Most other characters that have insanity as their primary "virtue" are made out to have much more valid reasons behind their "fall" than Ringo. I don't disagree that it's up to the individual to like or dislike something. I can at least agree with you on that she's crazy. Whether you like crazy people or not doesn't concern me. I don't think I espoused much on that regard on my post but if I did, it was only weak articulation on my part and I apologize.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In terms of whether the show is fresh and whether it would benefit from brevity, again, it's a matter of opinion. There's plenty here that was fresh - the first time we saw it, seven eps ago. Now that we're seeing it for the nth time without anything beyond cosmetic change, it isn't quite so fresh. That was an issue I had with Utena and why I worry about MPD - it felt like a lot of the freshness was packed into the early parts of the series and a lot of the creative spark was stale by the end. RGU was 39 eps, I believe, so that was always going to be a challenge. That''s why the "no wasted frames" argument doesn't fly with me, because I see Ikuhara using not just recycled imagery, but recycled imagery to accomplish the same result. And we're only 8 episodes in.

Sorry but reusing "stock footage" as some people put it also has the effect of reenforcing themes and highlighting oddities and such. It's a matter of style and your not liking is fine but for it to be a critical flaw, you'd need to wait until you have seen enough of the show. It basically boils down to what your aim with your posts are. I consider your posts as that of an intelligent man pointing out valid criticisms - and those require a certain etiquette, if you will - but if you are saying you are simply posting your personal opinion all the time then I have no say and I apologize for thinking too highly of you.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Is this interesting? Absolutely - it's the most visually striking series of the season. Ikuhara is undeniably a man with a genius for surrealism and his skill at composing a shot is stunning - he has a great imagination and a great eye. I just see worrying signs that his discipline isn't at that same level and I think the balance of the show has gone out of whack with the last few episodes and their obsessive focus on Ringo. It might be a different view than yours, but I don't buy the premise that not accepting what a director is doing at face value makes your opinion invalid.

Valid worries, and ones I don't necessarily not share. The premise I wished to bring forward wasn't that you should accept everything at face value but that perhaps - and it was just a perhaps - you were being overly critical of the show because of the "reputation" surrounding it which is just as bad as making it out to be something beyond what it is that some people do. In any case, I certainly do think a valid comment about the length of the show can only come after the majority of it has aired and not before. It's simply assuming more than you know otherwise.


Kay that was that. The tl;dr version is that I merely meant to play the devil's advocate and actually share much of the concerns about the show but I only wanted to suggest taking a slightly different approach - that of wait and watch a while - before we write it off. In the end, everyone's gonna do that so saying it was redundant but what gives, I had ample time and the post was made primarily with the intention of causing ripples - creating activity out of thin air, if you will - than much anything else anyway.

And the final one is the "ugly" types of comments that I was most looking forward to - if I am not to lie. The ones that accuse me of being a fanboy, having a biased outlook and such. Archon_wing is right about the tone of my previous post being used quite frequently nowadays and this is another tone that is being used quite often to quieten voices and one that's dirtier, imho.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Holy shit really?! Has this thread really gotten to the level where people aren't even allowed to question RGU/MPD/Ikuhara period? Also how can anyone say that comparing RGU and MPD is a bad idea when the whole thread has basically been spent doing so? Not that I would disagree at all since I personally have become rather bored of seeing Ikuhara and RGU praised non-stop up and down the board (arguably they've been talked about more than MPD itself) by some users while there's a perfectly new and fresh show to be experienced.

Sorry to disappoint your expectations but I don't care about Ikuhara at all. I care for him less than you do - given that you want to "hack him down to Earth" - while I don't care about his name at all. I like the subtle details he puts in the show and that's more or less it. I don't care for names at all.

How can I say comparing RGU and MPD is a bad idea after the whole thread was basically spent doing so? Precisely because the whole thread was spent basically doing so. Oh and I rewatched RGU after MPD and it didn't really do much more for me than Guardian_Enzo said - some brilliantly done surreal moments here and there. MPD is doing better and I want people to focus on MPD rather than keep bringing up RGU or the director or whatever. I don't think my post mentioned the director's appeal, his previous works or anything of the sort at all - other than the remark that this show should be treated on its own merit and I don't see you disagreeing, so what's the problem here again? I know. The problem is that you assumed my post was made because I was hurt as a fan of Ikuhara and given that you wish to "hack him down to earth", you couldn't not pounce upon the opportunity. I know that it's not that bad but I generally like to make things sound bad because that's how I roll. My reasoning behind it is the belief that people reflect a lot more when they are accused than otherwise. Pretty much.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I mean I've kind of been joking before, but this is getting more than a little ridiculous. Some people need to stop being so damn overbearing about Ikuhara and whatever legacy he might have left with Utena and just allow the flow and generation of ideas to flourish here or this thread is more done than it already is. I think they know who they are by the way.

I don't give the slightest damn about Ikuhara and I thought it was precisely my point that people shouldn't compare RGU and MPD. How you moved from "omg how can people say "don't compare RGU and MPD" after 9001 pages of doing so?!!!!" to "people should freaking stop that Utena thing and only talk about this fresh show" was amusing, to say the least. I am not one of those who cares for Utena or any director, VA, bla bla. There is only one person I would stay faithful to for a while and that has more to do with him having been backstabbed brutally where he shouldn't have been than my being a fanboy and even then, I will jump ships the first sign I get that his ship is but definitely gonna sink. I am cruel like that.


That's about all I have to say about that post or anything arising from it.

Few clarifications I would like to make.

I don't care about the reputation of the staff doing this for the most part.

All the stuff about RGU in this and the previous post of mine pertains to RGU the series and not the movie. The movie is arguably better.

I made that post expecting exactly this. I don't necessarily feel good about it - especially because I couldn't enjoy the ripples it created thanks to College etc. - but I must say it didn't turn out too bad.

And lastly, nothing personal intended towards everyone. If you get mad, it's only your loss

OT: I agree that the next episode will make or break this show.